501 Ignition timing

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501 Ignition timing

Postby huggins3719 » 22 Nov 2020 12:57

I have recently acquired a 501 engined 350 Strada and have been having difficulty kick starting it. I have checked the plugs and all jets on the carburettors. I have just set the timing to the marks shown in the manual and with the leading edge of the pick up in line with the centre of the left hand transducer and fitted a new battery that is fully charged but all to no avail. It will not start with a kick but will start easily on rollers. It will then rev freely and tick over at 1500rpm. There is the occasional spit back through the carburettors but otherwise picks up cleanly when opening the throttle quickly. I am new to Moto Morini and have yet to learn any quirks. Any suggestions would be gratefully received. Nothing rude though!
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby mbmm350s » 22 Nov 2020 15:11

Hi Mark,

Is this a Kokusan ignition equipped 507cc motor with no electric start, is that right.

Mark
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby huggins3719 » 22 Nov 2020 16:00

Hi Mark

You are correct on all points.

Regards

Mark
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby MickeyMoto » 22 Nov 2020 18:15

Have you done a dynamic timing check?

Does it need choke?
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby 3potjohn » 22 Nov 2020 19:33

My 507 bike with Kokusan ignition and a starter motor is reluctant to kickstart when cold ,I would say nigh on impossible, though will oblige when warmed a bit.Its a tall bike so not so easy to kick anyway and I try to avoid kicking a bike on its stand. It is as good as I can get it timing wise.Maybe I need to work at it.
It always starts on the button.Not much use to you of course.
My 350 will easily kickstart.
Did that model ever have a starter option, if the cases allow?
John
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby norbert » 22 Nov 2020 23:33

To start my 501 engines (Ducati ignition) I have to use the chokes (mostly the two of them with cold engine). Maybe that´s because of the 50 slides in the carbs. And both of them prefer one soft kick without intention to start, then a second one to look for compresion an then a decisive kick. If I do it like that they mostly start first kick. If I don´t follow that ritual normaly they won´t. I´ve got used to it. And better doing it that way even with a warm motor (without chokes but with that soft kick before). Normaly I´m kicking with the left, standing above the bike. Sometimes on the main stand, but never on the side stand. To kick a 501 is not the same as a 350 and on the side stand sooner or later you will bend the bracket for the side stand on the frame :wink:

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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby huggins3719 » 23 Nov 2020 10:08

Thanks for all your replies. The electric start was removed when the bike had this engine fitted and I don't think there is a provision to retro fit one. I try to start it on the centre stand with my left leg and have used the procedure of giving it a few kicks with fuel on and ignition off to prime the carbs and the combustion chambers. Then ignition on choke on ( it has a cable operated choke ) and then get it on compression before the final short jab down to unsuccessfully entice it into life. I am a Velocette Owner so very used to kick start procedures !! I have got my 600cc Thruxton starting first or second kick.

I don't know if the correct side stand is fitted or not because the angle of lean on this stand is pretty acute and I wouldn't dream of trying to start it on that.

No I haven't checked the timing with a strobe yet and am researching them on the web . It looks as though I will have to pay £50 to £100 for a decent one. The reviews are so contradictory though and it is difficult to make a choice. Any recommendations?

I will try adjusting the air/fuel mixture screw next as spitting back is a symptom of running a bit lean. It is very frustrating that it starts so easily on the rollers and ticks over so it can't be far away.

I am told this engine is fitted with an L5 cam so would that make any difference?
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby norbert » 23 Nov 2020 10:50

Be happy to have a L5 cam fitted :P
To me it sounds like a slightly false ignition adjustment if the the valves are ok.
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby Kamel » 24 Nov 2020 07:57

huggins3719 wrote:Thanks for all your replies. The electric start was removed when the bike had this engine fitted and I don't think there is a provision to retro fit one. I try to start it on the centre stand with my left leg and have used the procedure of giving it a few kicks with fuel on and ignition off to prime the carbs and the combustion chambers. Then ignition on choke on ( it has a cable operated choke ) and then get it on compression before the final short jab down to unsuccessfully entice it into life. I am a Velocette Owner so very used to kick start procedures !! I have got my 600cc Thruxton starting first or second kick.

I don't know if the correct side stand is fitted or not because the angle of lean on this stand is pretty acute and I wouldn't dream of trying to start it on that.

No I haven't checked the timing with a strobe yet and am researching them on the web . It looks as though I will have to pay £50 to £100 for a decent one. The reviews are so contradictory though and it is difficult to make a choice. Any recommendations?

I will try adjusting the air/fuel mixture screw next as spitting back is a symptom of running a bit lean. It is very frustrating that it starts so easily on the rollers and ticks over so it can't be far away.

I am told this engine is fitted with an L5 cam so would that make any difference?



Hi huggins3719 Are you interested in joining the Elektronik Sachse group buy ? It sounds as though you may be in need of it.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6323

Cheers,

Kamel
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby huggins3719 » 24 Nov 2020 11:31

Hello Kamel

I would be interested in the Sachs system if my Kokusan system is faulty. Is the Sachs ignition self generating and does it fit in the same place as the Kokusan on the end of the crankshaft?

Regards

Mark
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby Kamel » 24 Nov 2020 12:01

huggins3719 wrote:Hello Kamel

I would be interested in the Sachs system if my Kokusan system is faulty. Is the Sachs ignition self generating and does it fit in the same place as the Kokusan on the end of the crankshaft?

Regards

Mark


Hi Mark, I'm not all that familiar with the Kokusan system, but the Sachse is not self generating. Others more experienced may have knowledge about the suitably of it.


Cheers,

Kamel.
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby MickeyMoto » 24 Nov 2020 12:45

In my opinion, if the Kokusan system works, keep it. Nice and Japanese.
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby Kamel » 24 Nov 2020 14:21

MickeyMoto wrote:In my opinion, if the Kokusan system works, keep it. Nice and Japanese.


I agree actually :D they are pretty bulletproof by all accounts.

Does that system still use transducers?

Cheers,

Cliff.
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby MickeyMoto » 24 Nov 2020 15:07

Hi Cliff, it uses coils and a 'black box'. Needs 12 volts. The kill switches are back to front. The Ducati system connects earth to short the magneto coil, the kokusan breaks the circuit to switch off the ignition.

I put a Kokusan 501 in a Strada and it kickstarted ok, but did need a firm kick. As Norbert says, find compression then kick. A motorcycle boot is needed, not a pair of sneakers. It kicked back at first but after setting the idle mixture screws (or whatever they are called) and the timing dynamically it was ok.

The 501 is a torquey beast. Pulls in top from 2,000 rpm so no need to change gear! The L5 cam should add a bit of oomph at the top end where the J cam runs out of steam.
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Re: 501 Ignition timing

Postby 3potjohn » 24 Nov 2020 16:55

I agree, the Kokusan system should be reliable. If you decide to swap it out I know someone who would be happy to relieve you of it for £.
John
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