Petrol and ethanol

Anything to do with motorcyles

Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby John Bunting » 29 Sep 2014 03:46

hendre wrote:
John Bunting wrote:This article from Anglo American Oil, a race fuel supply company, was published in Speedscene the Hillclimb and Sprint Association magazine recently and is the only thing I have seen published from a fuel company regarding ethanol fuels.
John

do you have a link?


Sorry about that, too big to attach I will send to ITG
John
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 09 Oct 2014 21:08

a full year has passed on this test... evaporation (compared to starting weight):
BP Ultimate 98: -8 g (-48 g)
Tango Euro 95: -15 g (-75 g)
Aral 95E10: -15 g (-110 g)
Haan BlueOne 95 : -13 g (-83 g)

the algea in the BlueOne keep growing and there is definately something like a deposit looking like condenstion on the glass above the fuel level...

the bottels will stay where they are... let's see where we end up....

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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby devon wrinklie » 23 Oct 2014 17:26

Found this American article on Facebook.

MotoMojo: Ethanol in GasolineMost motorcyclists are affected by the ethanol mixed in their gasoline, whether they know it or not. Ethanol is a type of alcohol produced by fermentation of various food stocks and subsequent distillation. About 95 percent of U.S. ethanol comes from corn.
Gasoline has evolved into reformulated blends over the years due to numerous laws. California completely outlawed the use of lead in automotive fuels in 1992. Later in 1996, the Golden State regulated aromatics, benzene, sulfur, oxygenates, and other hydrocarbons. Then in 1999, new reformulated gasolines were introduced, and methyl-tertiary-butyl-ether (MTBE) was banned. MTBE improved octane and combustion but was found to create environmental problems when it got into the groundwater, etc. The EPA and other states introduced similar regulations.
Ethanol was introduced as a gasoline additive following the phase out of MTBE. For about the last 15 years, ethanol has been approved by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to be added to gasoline up to 10 percent, which is known as E10. Recently E15 (15 percent ethanol, 85 percent gasoline) was approved for sale. Although the EPA has approved E15 for use in 2001 and newer light-duty vehicles, which include most cars, light-duty trucks, and SUVS, the agency has not approved the use of E15 in motorcycles or ATVs. Fuel containing 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline is sold in some filling stations (called E-85) for use in flexible-fuel vehicles specially designed to adapt to various mixtures but definitely not for use in motorcycles either. Motorcyclists should avoid refueling from “blender” pumps, which dispense both E10 and E15 from the same hose, as residual E15 may remain in the hose.
MotoMojo: Ethanol in GasolinePure gasoline doesn’t contain oxygen, so “oxygenates” such as MTBE and ethanol were introduced to fuel to deliver extra oxygen into the combustion process. Oxygenates allow engines with excessively rich air-fuel mixtures (mainly found in carbureted engines) to more completely burn their fuel, resulting in less-toxic exhaust gases. It also serves to “stretch” the volume of gasoline and reduce fuel imports.
However, ethanol production has raised the price of corn, with economic ripple effects that increased the cost of raising livestock and other foods. Ethanol contains about 30 percent less energy than gasoline by volume. With E10 fuel, which is found in more than 90 percent of automotive gasoline sold in the U.S., fuel economy is about 3 percent lower than with straight gasoline.
Alcohol is hygroscopic, which means it absorbs moisture from its surroundings, in this case mainly condensation from air above the fuel. When the absorbed moisture reaches a critical percentage, phase separation occurs, resulting in the alcohol dropping out of the mixture and sinking to the bottom of the tank. Phase separation can also lead to the formation of a slime, which sticks to the walls of the tank and fuel system. If it dries, it may leave insoluble hard deposits throughout the system, clogging jets and orifices and jamming electric pumps.
MotoMojo: Ethanol in GasolineEthanol and water can make formic acid, and cause galvanic corrosion. Metals, plastics, and rubber parts in the fuel system are subject to deterioration and corrosion. Combined with additional heat from running lean, this can eventually damage the engine, fuel lines, tank, and exhaust.
Abrasive aluminum oxide, a white gritty powder, can form and settle in float chambers and other aluminum fuel system parts such as filter housings and pumps. When drawn into the engine, it can cause extensive damage.
Older motorcycles were not constructed with corrosion-resistant fuel systems nor can they tolerate the higher combustion temperatures that occur when E10 is burned. That’s because the oxygenates cause a leaner air-fuel mixture, which may overheat valves or pistons. Fuel hoses should be replaced more often, and pre-2000 models should have all rubber fuel parts upgraded to be compatible with modern gasolines. Vintage engines should be fitted with hardened valve seats.
Ethanol-laced gasoline deteriorates more quickly and forms gums and residues that may prevent fuel from flowing properly, especially though carburetor jets and passages. Older model motorcycles are particularly hard hit by this, and many bikes won’t start or will run very poorly after sitting for several months. Typically the engine may barely start, run poorly, and then stall if the choke is opened.
Two-stroke motorcycles are especially vulnerable to ethanol-laced fuels; alcohol reduces the lubricity of the fuel-oil mixture and may lead to piston sticking and engine seizure. Older motorcycles with fiberglass or plastic gas tanks are subject to tank swelling, leakage, or failure. Many additives have been developed to counter the negative effects of ethanol in gasoline, but some of alcohol’s effects can’t be eliminated. Therefore, straight gasoline should be purchased where available.
Motorcycles are often parked for extended periods, and vehicles that aren’t used regularly are most susceptible to ethanol-related problems. Fuel stabilizer should be added, which can slow deterioration and corrosive effects. However, additives can’t reverse phase separation. Owners should make sure the gas tank is topped off (with fresh gas) so there’s little air above the fuel to introduce moisture. RR
Visit www.americanmotorcyclist.com/rights/issueslegislation to help protect your motorcycle from E15. To locate ethanol-free gas stations near you, visit pure-gas.org.
By Ken Freund
MotoMojo: Ethanol in Gasoline
MotoMojo: Ethanol in Gasoline

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Tags: corn, E15, engine, ethanol, fuel, gasoline, issues, oil, politicalCategories: Chronicles
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 07 Feb 2015 11:37

another update after a year and 3 months on the shelf... evaporation (compared to starting weight):
BP Ultimate 98: -11 g (-59 g)
Tango Euro 95: -12 g (-87 g)
Aral 95E10: -16 g (-126 g)
Haan BlueOne 95 : -13 g (-96 g)
DSC_3193 - kopie.JPG
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The Aral E10 clearly has moisture in the mixture, when I took the bottle from the shelf thick drops sank to the bottom
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The algea in the BlueOne keep on growing, a few dropped to the bottom while weighing the bottle. There is still moisture around the fuel level but no moisture problems like in the Aral E10

But, no corrosion or solved o-rings or such...
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 08 Apr 2015 18:41

The mopeds are coming from the garage into a new season, lets see how your petrol looks if you have done only 50 miles last season (and your remaining petrol is about 18 months old...)

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BP Ultimate 98: -3 g (-62 g)
Tango Euro 95: -6 g (-93 g)
Aral 95E10: -5 g (-131 g)
Haan BlueOne 95 : -6 g (-102 g)

In the Aral E10 is clearly a layer of water in the bottom of the flask, de algae in the BlueOne are still happy and growing steadily.

October the next update, drive safely, keep the rubber under and fill up responsibly!
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby buell1203 » 08 Apr 2015 21:34

Interesting opinion expounded by harrymuffin and one I am not entirely at odds with.

I will however dispute his theory that ethanol is not an issue. Please recall that cars of the 50/60's seldom did more that 30k without a decoke or other remedial internal work.Additionally there was no rustproofing and often new cars displayed serious structural corrosion after two years hence the life of many was short.

I had a regularly used Ducati which suffered a damaged fuel tank due to ethanol expanding the plastic and leading to a massive leak..I currently own a 955 triumph sprint which has similar issues.ethanol has expanded the tank rendering it impossible to refit. The fuel has also leeched through the tank damaging the paint. The cost of a new tank? 1k for the Duc.£655 the triumph..oh,and both will fail again as they are still made if plastic!

This brings me to the final point.who on earth wants to drain a modern car fuel tank? There is no way to do so in most vehicles other than by means of syphoning manually or electrically,or via the sender aperture.

Easier with a bike but not always!
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby Ralph » 09 Apr 2015 08:02

Wasn't that why plastic tanks were banned for many years in the UK?
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 09 Apr 2015 08:50

just calculated the percentage of fuel avaporated:
BP Ultimate 98: -3 g (-62 g) ≈ 16%
Tango Euro 95: -6 g (-93 g) ≈ 24%
Aral 95E10: -5 g (-131 g) ≈ 36%
Haan BlueOne 95 : -6 g (-102 g) ≈ 31%
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby buell1203 » 09 Apr 2015 15:20

No Ralph..it was because of fears that they would rupture in an accident.

Ethanol is spawn of the devil in my estimation. It has cost me two motorcycles and no one in a position of authority is prepared to listen..There is too much influence from the land of plenty.They created the ethanol myth and support it via grants to buy cereal crops from their farmers thereby sustaining the economy.

why on earth the EU followed suit is anyones guess.

i bought the w800 because it has a steel tank..stil vulnerable but I can deal with rust. You just try shrinking a plastic tank back to size!!!
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 13 Apr 2015 06:36

buell1203 wrote:i bought the w800 because it has a steel tank..stil vulnerable but I can deal with rust. You just try shrinking a plastic tank back to size!!!

I bought a steel tank on my Guzzi V7 Café and have a custom aluminium tank made in India for the Duc GT1000... out with the plastic tanks!
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby buell1203 » 13 Apr 2015 18:22

I have been watching the Indian tank option for some time but there is a risk attached. Many report good quality work whilst others complain of fuel leaks and poor quality..Where did you get yours?

The sprint tank is quite complex and of course I do not have a template as mine is now too big hence not of value.

An alloy tank would be nice but expensive I would expect?

Either way it is an option I should not have to be considering if the manufacturers took time to provide appropriate fuel tank material. The bike might be worth £1500 therefore a tank at half that amount is hardly a wide move for what is a run of the mill motorcycle.

I have considered buying a new tank then when it fails,take legal action in respect of unsuitable materials.Unfortunately it would have to be taken against the supplying dealer which is hardly fair.
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 14 Apr 2015 06:29

buell1203 wrote:I have been watching the Indian tank option for some time but there is a risk attached. Many report good quality work whilst others complain of fuel leaks and poor quality..Where did you get yours?

Mine is still beeing produced as I wanted a special shape (so I could fit another seat to the GT)
http://www.indiamart.com/vintage-auto-world/
An alloy tank for the GT1000 is USD1200 because of the complicated shape, a steel one for a BSA Goldstar including chrome sides, paint job and badges USD650
He delivers tanks to Ducati Keamna... they have been good customers for years now :mrgreen:
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 10 Oct 2015 15:14

Bikes are returning to storage, time to think what to put in the tank for that period...
the test is running for 2 years now, 6 months since the last update

Image

BP Ultimate 98: -18 g (-80 g)
Tango Euro 95: -26 g (-119 g)
Aral 95E10: -28 g (-159 g)
Haan BlueOne 95 : -23 g (-125 g)

In the Aral E10 thete is no trace of the layer of water.... probaly went into suspension in the rest of the mixture, cannot be that it vanished into thin air. Tha algae are still growing in the BlueOne.

Image

The story that your o-rings dissolve in modern fuels... cannot see anything, I'll have to take them out to feel if the have become softer so they would collapse under pressure. No trace of anything on the aluminium or steel...

Next year may the last update... most motorists doon't leave their fuel in their bikes anyway :mrgreen:
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby TurboRestorer » 27 Feb 2016 19:23

In the UK I use super unleaded in all 5 of my bikes as there is no ethanol to attack rubber seals & plastic floats, I know in other countries that super unleaded fuels have some/lower levels of ethanol. As far as I'm aware we only have 5% ethanol in normal unleaded fuel.
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Re: Petrol and ethanol

Postby hendre » 01 Sep 2016 20:34

OK, last post... I'm moving house so the test has gone to the recycling unit in town :|
after na 3 years this is the state I found them in:

BP Ultimate 98: -22 g (-102 g)
Tango Euro 95: -28 g (-147g)
Aral 95E10: -25g (-184 g)
Haan BlueOne 95 : -29 g (-154 g)


Image

judgement (not based on any scientific test, just smell/look/feel):
BP Ultimate: no particularies, just smells like fresh gasoline, no junk/gunk on the steel or alu, rubber seal as flex as when it went into the bottle (subjective measurement as I don't have any equipment to measure exactly)
Image

Tango euro 95: dito, slightly darker in colour but that's the only difference I could find with the BP stuff
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Aral 95E10: looks like a cup of tea, smells a bit like terpuntine, seal somewhat brittle, slight brown deposit on the steel bar
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Haan BlueOne 95: gunk.junk on the bottom of the bottle, coliflowers on the alu bar, brown deposit on the steel bar, condensation on the bottle above the fuel level, seal very brittle (easy to break, color not very dark, smells like old socks... not like terpuntine :|
Image

make up you own conclusions when scrolling through the topic... I will ride using RON98 and will fill up with ethanol free BP Ultimate before puttin the bike in winter storage!
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