Dart Knowledge...

The Cagiva era Morinis
Gary D
Posts: 195
Joined: 29 May 2016 20:31
Location: Stoke Golding, Warks

Dart Knowledge...

Post by Gary D »

Hi

I can't help but be a bit intrigued by the Dart & I'm considering if I should get one? My questions are as follows:

1/ Is it quicker or slower than a good 3-1/2 Sport in performance terms?
2/ How does it compare in handling terms?
3/ Are there many headaches on parts availability?
4/ Are grippy tire options still available for the 16 inch wheels?
5/ What are the key reliability concerns?
6/ Is the 400 an improvement on the 350? Is it any worse in terms of parts availability?

I'd appreciate any advice that's on offer.

Many thanks

Gary
morini_tom
Posts: 919
Joined: 05 May 2006 13:47
Location: Northampton

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by morini_tom »

Hi Gary,

Difficult question!

It's quite a subjective thing, and depends to a degree how you intend to use the bike.

Personally I love my dart, but I do miss my 3 1/2 sport too!

Performance wise the difference between a dart and a good sport is nowadays probably more related to age, maintenance and tuning than the difference between them when they left the factory. The dart's M cam and kokusan ignition is a big part of this, and it's probably a bit softer and more mid rangey than a sport- but nothing to stop you changing the cam if you wanted!

In the real world, having the fairing and more relaxed riding position makes it a more comfortable machine at speed and over distance. The brakes are better than any sport, and the electrical system is more or less completely reliable.

Handling wise I think many would say you can't beat the purity of a sport. Darts are a bit softly sprung and I suspect a bit heavier than sports, but if you've been to Cadwell you'll know that the dart is no less nimble than any other Morini. The chassis is more than capable of handling the power, and even when I put the 501 in mine it was still up to the job (I've subsequently changed forks, front wheel and rear shock but that's another story)

Biggest parts availability issues are unsurprisingly bodywork and fuel tank. Whilst bodywork can generally be repaired, the same can't be said for the plastic tank and many now leak. The club is looking into options here. Otherwise, engine parts are no worse than other Morini, electric start and ignition system isn't too bad as they are reliable and the number of excaliburs being broken seems to keep spares available. Chassis parts wise a lot is common with Cagiva freccia but you'll not find much goes wrong in that department anyway.

Tyres. You can get Bridgestones in the correct size which are supposed to be pretty good. I changed front wheel to a 17 inch (fairly easy swap) and run avons on mine at the minute, which suit it well. Ironically the narrowness of the rear tyre by modern standards seems more limiting than the 16 inch front.

Reliability is truly not much of an issue. If it's a bike in good condition then you'll find the electrical system and starter motor no trouble at all. As mentioned the fuel tanks can develop leaks through over tightening of the mounting bolts. Fuel gauges can be a bit flakey but aren't they all! Mechanically the engine is not much different to any of the 350s so apart from the starter and electrical system you can pretty much expect the same. Darts had Nikasil barrels so piston/bore wear doesn't seem to be a huge issue.

400s are an even rarer beast, I'm not sure how many (any?) there are in the uk. Pistons, barrels and heads aside they are the same as 350s. 400s are supposed to have smaller valves to restrict them so in reality they are probably similar in performance, although I've never ridden one. 400 barrels and Pistons on a 350 or 350 heads on a 400 would be the way to go. I reality though, 25 years after they left the factory there's probably nothing in it. I would buy the best example I could afford, regardless of whether it is a 350 of 400. If it had immaculate bodywork and a good tank then I would probably tolerate minor chassis/engine defects as these are generally easier to sort.

The dart is to my mind a hugely underrated machine and I'm really surprised their value has t gone up faster.
Gary D
Posts: 195
Joined: 29 May 2016 20:31
Location: Stoke Golding, Warks

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by Gary D »

Hi Tom

What a fabulous reply & a big help. Thank you very much indeed!

I'll take all this in & figure on whether to go for it, or not? It really makes no sense,given the rammed nature of my very small garage. There's an itch though Tom.... :? ! In my day job, I'm involved in fabrication of ally & steel car parts...& can make low volume & smallish pressings. Is there a chance the tank can be made in metal, or is plastic the only way? If a picture is available with approximate length/breadth & height dimensions, I don't mind checking the viability out? If I can help keep Darts on the go, then I'll do my best.

Anyhow...back to that day job!

Many thanks again & I'll let you know how I get on!

Best regards

Gary
huub
Posts: 194
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 15:11

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by huub »

tyres are no problem nowadays , the big scooters now run 16 inch tires ,
so modern rubber is available at amazing low cost.
with 16 inch you've got better tyre avalability than with the old 18 inch wheels.
i run pirelli diablo scooter tires on my guzzi lario ( 16 inch tires too) those are absolutely brilliant.
EVguru
Posts: 1528
Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by EVguru »

I've had two Darts, a stock 350 (from Tom's father) and another that had received 400 barrels and MEZ Porting heads.

The exhaust on the first 350 quickly started to fall apart. The usual mod is to replace the collector box with a Y=piece, but being in a hurry, I just made a new empty collector box (the original has quite a few baffles). The silencer too fell to bits and was replaced with a home made straight through version that wasn't really much louder than stock, but did sound much nicer. The airbox was de-restricted and the carburetor balance pipe removed and capped off for better low speed running. This definitely all helps, but even so the Dart never felt like it had the mid range grunt of my Sport, although it was equally willing to rev well past the redline.

The original front tyre is I recall a 110/80-16 which became unavailable. People used to then fit a 100/90-16 which apparently cured the tendency to stand up if you braked into a curve.

The second machine with 400 conversion was a good bike once I'd sorted out all the problems the previous owner had created. It still didn't feel as muscular as my Sport and I think it couldn't take advantage of the extra capacity and ported heads with the stock cam.

I had a coccyx problem for a while that meant I couldn't ride a Dart because of the way the seat curves up at the back, so I sold both of mine. The 400 got converted back to stock 350 barrels and heads before sale using parts from my spares stock. In that form it was tested by Realclassic (http://www.realclassic.co.uk/morinidartgileracx.html) before it eventually found its way to the USA (almost had to smuggle it there) where Jarl used it to set 4 class records at Boneville.

I still have a bit of a soft spot for the Dart and I could in theory build one using spares. I bought several Cagiva Freccias for very little money as spares for the Darts. One was a C12, so a Dart K9 prototype replica is theoretically possible.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
morini_tom
Posts: 919
Joined: 05 May 2006 13:47
Location: Northampton

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by morini_tom »

Gary,

No problem, always happy to share my experience.

Any assistance with the dart tank you could provide would be fantastic.

We have been exploring getting some made in aluminium. There is certainly a market for a small batch.

The advantage of the dart of course is that the tank is entirely enclosed so it's not super critical what it looks like! It is a fairly complex shape, but no reason why that has to be absolutely stuck to. I have a few spare (leaky!) tanks so can easily provide a sample for copying or butchering for tooling.

I'll take some photos and dimensions later and let you know.

Best wishes,
Tom
Gary D
Posts: 195
Joined: 29 May 2016 20:31
Location: Stoke Golding, Warks

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by Gary D »

Hi Tom

Thanks for that. I'd be keen to have a look at the pics & dimensions of the tank. Are there any fittings in the tank that also need reproducing? Any ideas what sort of batch size would be possible? I think this is worth us looking at, unless the matter's already being sorted elsewhere? My times at a premium (though not in £ Sterling terms), so if there's a solution confirmed elsewhere, then it's probably best to roll with it.

I'll await your thoughts/pics/dimensions & thanks again for your time in replying.

Best regards

Gary
Gary D
Posts: 195
Joined: 29 May 2016 20:31
Location: Stoke Golding, Warks

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by Gary D »

Who'd have thought about scooter tyres for the Dart? That's food for thought & another option, if I go down the Dart road. Thanks for the tip!
morini_tom
Posts: 919
Joined: 05 May 2006 13:47
Location: Northampton

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by morini_tom »

Hi Gary,

So far no other solution in place. I sent a tank to a place in the west country to have a look at earlier in the year but have heard nothing back. Dave Marlow (MRC Librarian & ATG Editor) has I believe spoken to a place who said they would weld up any parts we cut & formed ourselves, but really I think we need a complete product made.

Batch size wise it's hard to say. There is definately a market as they are all gradually succombing. 10 or so years ago the club made a batch of fibreglass tanks which sold well (approx 5-10 tanks I think). Unfortunately whilst they were a brilliantly made product, nobody could foresee ethanol, and so I thinkmost of those are no longer up to the job (mine included!)

The first thing to find out is if it is possible to replicate, and if/where we would want to simplify the geometry as what works in blown plastic does not necessarily in aluminium. Once we know if it's possible and a ballpark timescale/price then I think we could consider how we go forward. It's possible we could ask the Morini Club to fund the tooling or to commission a small batch.

Regarding the size, across it's largest dimensions it is 320 x 380 x 240mm. Feature wise there are 3 flush moulded mounting bosses, two for the fuel tap and one for the air filter. There is a stub tube on the top for the breather and then the fuel cap. The tank is mounted to the bike front and rear on rubber pads and held down with rubber straps, so dimensional accuracy is not super critical.

Personally, I really need a different shape tank altogether for my 501 as the airbox and cylinder heads are compromised with the standard tank geometry, but if a batch of roughly standard tanks is being made then I would much rather have one of those than the leaking one currently on my bike. I'm desperate to get mine on the road next year and that's not happening without a tank of some sort!

Photos below and also links to higher resolution versions

http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank1.jpg
http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank2.jpg
http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank3.jpg
http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank4.jpg
http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank5.jpg
http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank6.jpg
http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank7.jpg
http://www.morini-riders-club.com/photo ... tTank8.jpg

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SupermotoDave
Posts: 344
Joined: 13 Apr 2006 18:38
Location: Reading UK
Contact:

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by SupermotoDave »

Jumping in here, as Tom says I have found a man who will weld up anything we take him but we would need to provide the bits so I have started producing a cardboard replica that can be used as a pattern but its a slow job when I have the club mag to produce as well.
As you can see the shape is a nightmare and the tank is only about 11 litres so simplifying the shape is likely to drop the capacity even more which would not be welcome. If anything most people would rather increase the capacity.
It may be possible to simplify the shape by removing the bike's air box and using K&Ns, so there would be no need for the complete cut out underneath, and it may be possible to increase the height by up to 25mm if you use a flush filler.
Another problem is the petrol tap. it needs to be remote as you cannot get to it and mine is leaking where it bolts to the tank. It is an electrotap and they are not easy to replace as a normal tap will not fit, nor could you reach it. Mine has been striped and bodged by the PO so it still works, but the leak is stopping me from getting an MOT so I can register the bike in the UK so I am definitely in the market for a tank but the killer for me is the price which would need to be very reasonable, but as Tom says you cannot see it so no need for an immaculate finish

Cheers

David
Gary D
Posts: 195
Joined: 29 May 2016 20:31
Location: Stoke Golding, Warks

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by Gary D »

Paul

Many thanks for your time and your typically thorough reply. It's amazing how much one can learn about a Dart, in 24 hours on this amazing resource! I need to figure what I need most right now in terms of the last 25% of garage floor space. If I got a Dart, I'd probably mainly use it for the track day...assuming I could get into the gig?!! It may also make a sedate two up bike for me & Jo..as hanging onto the back of the Corsaro is rather like trying to lasso a passing meteorite :( . You wouldn't catch me on the back that's for sure :shock:

If you've any thoughts to add on the possible reproduction of the Dart tank in terms of desirable features or specs, I'd welcome your views.

Thanks & best regards

Gary
Gary D
Posts: 195
Joined: 29 May 2016 20:31
Location: Stoke Golding, Warks

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by Gary D »

Hi Tom & David

Lots of good thoughts have been expressed here, for which I'm grateful. A particular thank you for the images to Tom. If this thing has legs as a project, then thoughts & specs need to align & be agreed. I think I can maybe help out here, but please understand that my guys aren't "waiting for the job". I'm also trying to expand a business with these guys (& my 3 other business partners for the last 10 years), and that means that several other projects are ahead of this one. For that reason, I'd need to insist on being the only point of contact with the supplier, as their capacity (as our number one supplier), is absolutely key to my day job!

What I am though, is keen to help! If my guys (fabricator & machinist) feel that there is forward, then I'll definitely need a sample tank & that may well need to be sacrificed. Please be aware that patterns of a an existing pattern, are only to be used with extreme caution! It'd be much better to use a ropey original.

To further advance the enquiry, I could really use close ups of the hardware fittings on the tank. The fuel filler neck & the fuel tap boss in particular. Can you help please folks?

Regarding price David, I'm afraid I can't promise it'll be a bargain, as the third parties involved aren't in it for altruistic reasons. Producing a decent outcome will also require expertise that's at a premium in terms of availability, these days. What I can say, is that I will apply "mates rates" within that basic restriction. Tom, it may be possible but to have a variation, but this will require bespoke handwork work & will doubtless incur an additional cost. That can be discussed & quoted though. I will definitely try to help though, of that you can be assured.

That's all for now folks, more on this after a provisional discussion with the supplier next week.

Thanks & best regards,

Gary
Gary D
Posts: 195
Joined: 29 May 2016 20:31
Location: Stoke Golding, Warks

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by Gary D »

Hi all
I
We can make the tank as a 2 part aluminium pressing (1050A grade). The minimum order quantity would need to be 10 units. I'll take care of the tooling costs. I'm pretty confident the fittings shouldn't cause too many issues, but I would need to have a closer look at them in order to confirm. Any chance of some extreme close ups please folks? There would definitely be an element of stock holding of theses machined parts though. If I can understand the fittings, then I can quote the job in it's entirety next week. Please don't ask me for a ball park in the meantime, as the quoting work will take a few days to figure.

Lead time from pattern supply to end product would be 16 weeks. Payment terms/deposits to be discussed & confirmed. Concerning the variations mentioned, we can do something but
quoting the job would require some more detailed specs & require some additional panel beating.

If anyone wants to meet up over a tank & a beer/cuppa, then I'd be happy to do so. Over to you for now folks. Have a great weekend & safe riding.

Best regards

Gary
norbert
Posts: 750
Joined: 15 May 2007 15:15
Location: Lübeck/Germany

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by norbert »

Very interesting
If you will realy realise this tank, are you interested to increase the number ot reach that 10 units with the help of Dart drivers from gemany p.e.? There are some over here and maybe there would be interested the one or the other.
Just asking, I myself do not have one.

ciao
norbert
morini_tom
Posts: 919
Joined: 05 May 2006 13:47
Location: Northampton

Re: Dart Knowledge...

Post by morini_tom »

Hi Gary,

Thanks again for your looking into this, sounds very promising indeed.

I will take some detailed pictures over the weekend and upload them.

Regarding the fuel tap, as it's also a very hard to get item it might be better for us to spec a modern available alternative and have the tanks made to suit that, rather than commit us to the original taps. What is everybody's consensus in that regard?

Similarly the fuel filler cap is a moulded threaded cap so would need to be something different for the ally tanks. My suggestion again would be to spec a modern bolt in filler cap and make the tanks to suit that.

Gary- you're in the midlands aren't you? I could probably get a tank to you after work one day in the week if that's any help?

Norbert- absolutely please spread the word that we are looking into this- the more dart owners we can help the better, and the more people who can commit at an early stage the more viable it becomes.

Thanks all,
Tom
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