Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby MickeyMoto » 19 Nov 2018 21:12

Have a dump before the start. Could save 2kgs!
Haircut?
Wear swimming trunks?
Remove half the disc bolts?
Drill mudguards?
Ali handlebars? (AluminIum, not AliExpress!)
Drill the wheel spokes?

Save a heap...
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby norbert » 19 Nov 2018 22:06

MickeyMoto wrote:Have a dump before the start. Could save 2kgs!
...


That´s exactly what I use to say :lol:
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 19 Nov 2018 23:27

MickeyMoto wrote:Have a dump before the start. Could save 2kgs!
Haircut?
Wear swimming trunks?
Remove half the disc bolts?
Drill mudguards?
Ali handlebars? (AluminIum, not AliExpress!)
Drill the wheel spokes?

Save a heap...


Ha, ha! :roll:

You forgot also to have a pee - at my age that's essential even for the short hills ;)

Might be interesting to get it weighed. One year at Curborough someone bought a mobile weighbridge.

Must be one of the lighter Morini twins around already given the 250 frame and 125 tank (with just enough fuel to get to the top). Even the seat is way lighter than standard, as are the side covers (sheets of plastic).
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby MickeyMoto » 20 Nov 2018 06:41

Maybe the reason the times are getting slower is the stop half way to have another pee? Especially during the early / late season cooler events!
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 24 Dec 2018 15:50

Phase 1 of the Winter Project 2018 is go (not a rebuild as such so not copyright infringement of Mr M Moto's thread).

Easier to get the big bits off with the 2C out of the garage on a relatively dry/sunny and not freezing day. Go to get the heads off to swap out the special weevee light alloy valve caps (unless someone knows where I can get four new ones?). They were coming off anyway to be replaced with the Kanguro pair but I want to assemble those with the 'racing bits' as well as new springs and snazzy new stainless inlet valves.

Note cunning dodge to allow heads to be taken off a 350 in a 250 frame.

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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 25 Jan 2019 17:19

It being significantly above brass monkeys temperature in the garage today I have made a little progress. I'd already done a bit of port 'smoothing' on the replacement Kanguro heads and lapped in the valves (including the swanky new stainless inlet ones), so time to lift the heads on the road bike to liberate the alloy valve caps and review the state of the bores.

Who was asking about getting the heads off a 500? You can get the heads off a 350 that is in a 250 frame but it's a bit of a j-j-jiggle even with most of the engine bolts out. I used my usual tactic of plugging the push rod tunnels with rag whilst removing the socket head screw. All went swimmingly on the rear head. On turning to the front (with the engine now wedged upwards to allow clearance) I found the rocker gear wouldn't come loose. D'oh - you numpty! Last time I had the front head off was in a bit of a rush doing a swap after the exhaust port threads went completely. In the rush I must have omitted to get the 'A' upward on both trunnions and the 'wrong' one was decidedly stuck on the studs. Yes, I should have noticed all was not well when I assembled it then but that was several years ago. It has been running OK. Perhaps the rocker studs were a bit crooked anyway. It looks as if one of them may be a replacement. A certain amount of percussive maintenance and leverage was required. The head was slightly bruised by this but I'm not too concerned as it's not going back on and the trunnion survived well (I have a spare set anyway).

I'm not going to show you a photo of the state of the piston crowns - let's just say they confirm that it has been running very rich a lot of the time. The bores seem in pretty good nick considering.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 05 Feb 2019 13:24

Reassembled the Kanguro heads. Swapped over the fancy light alloy valve caps and treated them to new valve springs and swanky new stainless inlet valves. Had the usual juggling match getting the valve collets back in. I must get a more svelte valve spring compressor. With my bleary old eyes and less than perfect digits on my left hand it was far more of a j-j-jiggle than it used to be. The later design valves/collets make it slightly trickier but I'm sure Lambertini redesigned them for a good reason. The new style with a groove in the valve take more persuading to pop when removing so I guess perhaps they had problems with the old type 'dropping'?

Did some preliminary weighing of rocker arms out of interest in case I do attempt some lightening. First observation is that there must have been two OEM? makers: 'Fugini' and 'BS'. Interestingly a sample of four Fugini and two BS arms reveals that the weight without adjuster can vary by 1g or so (as best as my not very accurate scales can tell). Also one of the Fugini arms has a significantly 'shallower' height at the adjuster end - yet is one of the slightly heavier items.

The spindle on this set seems a tiny bit worn but M'Dina only have used ones available and whilst I was able to sort through Rob's box of used rockers that's not so easy with bits 'on-line'. Not too bad though and I can see if either of the two spares I have somewhere is better.

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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 11 Feb 2019 20:16

Started putting the top end back on. In the search for a tiny bit more power, as well as arranging for an L5 cam, I've gone for the running without base gaskets dodge. I'm using a paper gasket round the pushrod tunnel and 'Wellseal'. I've not done an accurate calculation but it should push the compression ratio up significantly beyond the standard Sport of 11:1 - possibly beyond 12:1.

I can usually get the cylinders back on a Morini fairly easily but today I struggled with the front pot. Battled with it for a while and then realised I'd got the ring compressor upside down. At first sight it looks symmetrical but it isn't and it's always a pain persuading it in to position given the cylinders going deep in to the case and long through studs. I suppose I should have noticed the size digits were upside down and that the gap between the ends as it compresses is much closer than the wrong way. Flipped it round and I soon had the cylinder in place. It might be easier to place the pistons in the cylinders before installation but that's impossible with the engine still in the frame. As it is, getting the rear cylinder over the studs is a j-j-jiggle and has to be approached at just the right angle.

The good news is that turning it over with no plugs, pushrods or rocker gear, it spins OK with no suggestion of contact up top. Given the Heron Head I reckon I should be OK so long as I'm not also tempted to 'swing the cam' a tad. Too dark and chilly by then to install the valve gear and in any case I have to wait for a couple of new tappet adjuster screws from Mdina Italia. Some gorilla had over-tightened the locknuts on the spare used rockers I bought to experiment with (lightened and polished) and damaged the M6 x 0.75 thread on the ball headed adjusters.

All being well they will arrive tomorrow and then I can fire the beast up again. If bolting the engine back in properly and putting on the 2:1 exhaust goes smoothly (the 'new' heads have very good port threads so it should, but a getting 350 system on to a 350 in a 250 frame is always a bit fraught) I might even get a ride on it given the weather forecast.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby Steve Brown » 11 Feb 2019 22:21

72degrees wrote:Started putting the top end back on. In the search for a tiny bit more power, as well as arranging for an L5 cam, I've gone for the running without base gaskets dodge. I'm using a paper gasket round the pushrod tunnel and 'Wellseal'. I've not done an accurate calculation but it should push the compression ratio up significantly beyond the standard Sport of 11:1 - possibly beyond 12:1.

I can usually get the cylinders back on a Morini fairly easily but today I struggled with the front pot. Battled with it for a while and then realised I'd got the ring compressor upside down. At first sight it looks symmetrical but it isn't and it's always a pain persuading it in to position given the cylinders going deep in to the case and long through studs. I suppose I should have noticed the size digits were upside down and that the gap between the ends as it compresses is much closer than the wrong way. Flipped it round and I soon had the cylinder in place. It might be easier to place the pistons in the cylinders before installation but that's impossible with the engine still in the frame. As it is, getting the rear cylinder over the studs is a j-j-jiggle and has to be approached at just the right angle.

The good news is that turning it over with no plugs, pushrods or rocker gear, it spins OK with no suggestion of contact up top. Given the Heron Head I reckon I should be OK so long as I'm not also tempted to 'swing the cam' a tad. Too dark and chilly by then to install the valve gear and in any case I have to wait for a couple of new tappet adjuster screws from Mdina Italia. Some gorilla had over-tightened the locknuts on the spare used rockers I bought to experiment with (lightened and polished) and damaged the M6 x 0.75 thread on the ball headed adjusters.

All being well they will arrive tomorrow and then I can fire the beast up again. If bolting the engine back in properly and putting on the 2:1 exhaust goes smoothly (the 'new' heads have very good port threads so it should, but a getting 350 system on to a 350 in a 250 frame is always a bit fraught) I might even get a ride on it given the weather forecast.


Hi Pete, hope it goes well. When I did the no base gasket trick it was all fine. I think I checked for piston/head clearance by assembling the top end with a loop of soft solder wire on top of the piston. When you gently take the piston over TDC/PMS it compresses the solder and you can measure the remaining gap. I did this a lot with the 2 strokes as well. Some people used plasticine for the job but that I think is to easy to squash and your measurement might not be accurate. I think it went better, Stuart at NLM thought the increase in the ratio would be about 1 as well.

The thing that stands out to me though is it sound like you only have a paper gasket round the pushrod gallery? I would have thought you'd get a leak around the rest of the joint then? I always used silicone sealant without the gasket which was fine, now I would use that sooper dooper 3M Threebond/Yamabond. It's proper good stuff, even effective on old British clunkers.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 11 Feb 2019 23:52

Paper (0.15mm proper gasket material) round the pushrod gallery coated with with Wellseal and also Wellseal over the rest of the case and cylinder mating surfaces. Based on advice from someone known to us ;) I did think of using Threebond as that apperas to have worked very well on the crankcase joint of the engine I rebuilt two years ago. The Wellseal seems pretty 'sticky' judging by some that got on my fingers though and allegedly never fully hardens, so we shall see. Not the end of the world if it 'mists' a bit given the short duration it will be normally operating (once I've run the new pistons in). Looking at how the piston crowns were lying in the top of the bores before the heads went on I reckon it will be OK. I should find out tomorrow - if I can start it with all that extra compression ;)

Plan is to run it in a bit in the road bike before swapping to the Forgotten Error. If it begins to make horrible metallic noises, 'pinks' or pisses oil out I'll whip it apart again and rethink!
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 12 Feb 2019 20:19

It lives!

The first kick over 'dead' once the valve gear was back on revealed impressive compression and no nasty noises other than a satisfying 'plop' from the exhaust ports (no exhaust system at that point).

Took four kicks to work some fuel through the system before it coughed a bit and then it fired up. Didn't want any 'choke' at all though even though a pretty chilly day. The PHBH28s are still wearing the Polini intake elbows and foam filters with covers so probably a bit on the rich side. If I can remember where I put the main jets and needles I had in with the S&Bs I'll put them back on as it will be running those on the hills. The sooner I get a feel for the jetting the better. I'm wondering what to do about the exhaust system. The 'race' 2:1 I acquired has significantly smaller diameter pipes than the NLM stainless one on the road bike. I might try a swap round in advance of the engine swap and see how it feels.

Only issue was a leak from one of the connections for the in-line fuel filters. Must have got a bit strained getting the carbs on and off but it tightened up OK and stopped dripping.

No sign of any oil escaping as yet, but I haven't got it properly hot yet. Looks like tomorrow might be a decent day so I'll stick the original front mudguard back on (another from the Spanish barn find 250 is currently being de-dented and re-painted from rusty in places silver to something approaching a matching red) and take it for a ride. Whether to bother with 'coach lines' on the guard? I'm not inclined to spend much on cosmetics but can you get black and gold lining on a roll that can be stuck on?
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby MickeyMoto » 12 Feb 2019 20:34

72degrees wrote:Whether to bother with 'coach lines' on the guard? I'm not inclined to spend much on cosmetics but can you get black and gold lining on a roll that can be stuck on?


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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby Greybeard » 12 Feb 2019 22:39

Seems such a shame to file away that weight from the rockers only to replace it with plastic ballast on the front mudguard :wink:

Steve (wot has no weight concerns - I wish :oops: )
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby 72degrees » 12 Feb 2019 23:14

When this engine goes in to the hill climb machine once the pistons are run in (some time before Hartland Quay on 29th March) I can assure you that won't have any pinstripes. The front mudguard on that is a very lightweight plastic trials item !

The engine currently in the Forgotten Error (mystery cam) will then go in to the road 2C, which by then may have a shiny red (near enough match to the rest of it for me) DIY pinstriped with black and gold front mudguard.The original one had developed a large crack which got an advisory at the last MoT. I might get that repaired and powder coated professionally one day - but I'm not that bothered by 'immediate appearance' and it could do more with treating to new tyres.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Postby Ming » 13 Feb 2019 08:06

72degrees wrote:When this engine goes in to the hill climb machine once the pistons are run in (some time before Hartland Quay on 29th March) ...


Ooer, a significant date - mind it doesn't get postponed... :wink:
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