Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Post by 72degrees »

Now I remember why I had to borrow the clutch plates. If it did briefly nip up it hasn't affected the compression which is very good (as it should be with new pistons and rebored cylinders). A fast kick just results in the clutch slipping. However, with the 22mm carbs on and a lashed up fuel tank I managed to start it by catching it just right with a surprisingly slow kick. The sparks department certainly seem to be still OK at least.

The clutch and alternator covers are off and it is rather clattery on the clutch side. It was when I first persuaded it in to life after the rebuild and I suspect the bush on the layshaft 1st gear (and possibly wear on the gear itself) as NLM had no new bushes available. I can live with that as it is nothing like as bad once the clutch cover is back on.

So the mystery deepens. Once it had warmed up it settled down to steady idle once I'd tweaked the stops up on the 250 carbs. I'm sure I had turned the fuel on before that first run at Loton but now I'm beginning to wonder! :oops:

Anyway, encouraging enough to get a new set of clutch plates to continue with my cunning plan.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Much, much easier to start with a set of new friction plates and springs. Nearly a numpty moment when I almost picked up the GT45 spray rather than brake cleaner to give the driven plates a wipe down, but I realised in time.

Tending to warm up significantly quicker on the rear pot than front (once both starter jets closed). Static in a shed, that's not completely logical. I suppose I should check the jetting on the 22s is the matched but as they won't be used much longer ICBA. Definitely running on two though and the front came up to temperature OK after a bit of light blipping.

The clatter from the rear low down seemed a tiny bit less with the new plates. Which is odd as the clutch centre free play is pretty much perfect. A lot better with the clutch cover on, but still noticeable at low revs as gently revved. My money is still on the 1st gear bush.

The cunning plan is go for probably mid October. Place bets now!

So does anyone need a (running well before removal) 250 2C engine? Minus rocker covers and rocker gear (robbed for the project) and without alternator and ignition pickup. Also lacking a kickstart lever as the 2C one is not a bad alternative to a fancy alloy folding one. It will be on Ebay any day soon.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Post by 72degrees »

A minor breakthrough. Managed to find a supplier of stainless steel bushes on Ebay (OCM Engineering) of just the right dimensions to adapt the Koni shock silentbloc mountings (10mm ID, 13mm OD) made to required length. The shocks may be a bit too stiffly sprung but that can be addressed if needed.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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The bushes worked perfectly. I may need to source softer springs for the Konis eventually but they can be run on minimum preload for now.

Another minor victory has been reclaiming the very worn remote gear lever/pivot (all 2Cs seem to suffer from it). Drilled out the lever to 17mm and pressed in a plain bush acquired from Simply Bearings. Much better with minimum sideways waggle. Might have been better if the factory had used a replaceable bush in the design but what do we expect for a bike clearly built to a budget?

Currently attempting to refurbish a 125H petrol tank (thanks for the idea Evguru). It came from Italy in a very sorry state but at a reasonable price. A fair amount of time with powered abrasive devices will be required and the odd pin hole filled with chemical metal then a simple coat of Hammerite smooth red by brush will do for now. I might even treat it to badges as I already have one going spare. As hoped, it fits on quite well with a long bolt through the bushed mountings and the holes where the tank rubber mounts are on a 250 frame at the front. It will need the rear rubbers notching (well something similar and cheap) to sit nicely but a vacuum cleaner drive belt will retain it in the usual manner. The run for the throttle cables, particularly the front is a bit close to the tank bottom but I can probably get away with it by adjusting the 'twist' on the carbs within sensible float bowl fuel levels and careful routing. Not tiny but significantly smaller than a 2C tank and more in the spirit of the project than some new pattern tank off something not Morini.

I have a cunning plan for the seat. The 2C one is in surprisingly good condition but rather heavy, and naturally, longer than required. The plan will involve a genuine MotoMorini part but I won't say exactly from what machine in case the NHCA Forgotten Era organiser is reading this ;)

Time for the engine swap soon.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Phase 1 of cunning plan complete.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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It lives!

The usual struggle with the exhaust system as a 350 in a 250 doesn't quite line up.

A comedy moment when I kicked it over half a dozen times before I realised I hadn't put the plug caps back on :) When I did, it started literally first kick.

Revving much more sweetly now it has a 350 exhaust system. Not quite as eager on no load as the 375 with L5 but much better than at Loton in April. Mind you, some of that may be down to being hooked up to a NLM ignition module (though with it's own red pickup).

Just got to tidy up the wiring (a quick jury rig was done to make sure it would actually start) and improve the throttle cable routing (done in a rush again) and it will be good to go. I'll try a very short run round the block on it first tomorrow though.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Hmm. Finished off to get it ready for the road and tried it just up the drive. The clutch is a bit grabby. For the Loton outing I had borrowed the plate set from the 375 (with Benjy's special hex head spring nuts and spacers under the spring cups). It seemd fine with those and I was sure I had shimmed it properly. I put a set of new friction plates in it since then but used the old driven plates. Perhaps that was spoiling the ship. I'll see how it is on the road tomorrow and then check the stack in case I got something in wrong. Not quite the on/off switch that they can be when shimming is needed or a spring stud has let go but not nice. Still, it only gets used once on a hill climb run.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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So this morning, I rode it cautiously round the block a couple of times and it seemed OK. Got all the gears, accelerated reasonably well and even idled reliably. The next obvious move was my usual test run for a bike after major work, to the Greasy Spoon at Quatt and back. In my experience, if it will do that with nothing failing or falling off it's OK for at least 100s of miles.

On the way I took it gently and only used about 1/3 throttle and it went surprisingly well. A bit mechanically noisy at rest, but at a decent speed that is lost in the wind and exhaust music. Started first kick for the return journey and so on the straight after the Motor Museum I whacked it wide open. Stutter, stutter, gasp, wheeze, complete loss of power. Backed off to a 1/3 throttle and normal service was resumed. On the next downhill section I tried it again and was able to coax it up to high revs for a tight engine but still wouldn't take A Tutto Gas.

Not having much time to finish the project for Loton in April I had simply borrowed the PHBH 28s from the 375 and not touched the jetting. That has a mid-range flat spot that has to be ridden through sometimes. The project unit has a different (slightly less hot, it seems) cam. So it looks as if the only problem was wildly wrong half to full throttle carburation. Might still be ignition related (snuffing a weak spark at high revs) but it's running with the upgraded system from the 375 other than the pickup, which I can always do a substitution test on to eliminate. The stator seemingly doesn't provide enough volts to charge the battery, so it could also be a weird flux effext. Had that once before on SO Morinis but only when the lights are on and the lighting coils working hard. Doesn't seem to affect this one. The stator I am using is from the donor 250 bike, but the 375 machine has been converted to 12v (Reg/Rec and bulbs). I'll have a poke about with the multimeter tomorrow but the 250 uses the same stator as an early 350 I think so should be OK if in good condition? Like the clutch not really an issue for hill climbs though as long as the sparks department is up to snuff.

Anyway, the project is back on and so it will be getting spanking new PHBH28s that will need setting up from scratch anyway (better the devils you know will at least fit, are 'period' and available).

It also vibrates significantly less than the 375/L5 cam engine. That makes me wonder if that power plant could do with a bottom end refresh - though it seems I had the last remaining pair of new 350 conrods (the eyes had gone oval) for this project engine I rebuilt last winter, so that could be problematical.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Ah, my precious silver darlings!

First start up with the new PHBH28s very encouraging. I'd checked the jetting on the current set on the 375, and in consultation with Eurocarb specified something that ought to be about right to begin with. Started easily and definitely needed one starter jet open - which is a good sign. Settled down to a impressively slow, steady idle when warmed up even without fiddling with the out of the box 1 1/2 turns out mixture screws and default throttle stop position. I've decided to clean the pod filters properly (first time for years) before bothering to get the Morgan carbtune manometer out. I'll need another set anyway and may go for tucking them up under the tank on the end of standard intake elbows (which I still have in the shed). The 125H tank might make that tricky for space, I realise, however, that I can address the cable routing issue when using that by use of appropriate angle elbow kits on the carb tops. It will need throttle cables anyway and I'll either use universal ones suitably adapted or get those nice people at Venhill to make a pair up with shorter outers (plus in cable adjusters while I'm at it).

The tank is coming along. Past the initial rust pit curing stage and now had its first top coat of Hammerite smooth red, which is near enough for me, (over Por15 chassis paint). Can't be bothered getting all the dents absolutely perfectly filled so it will have street cred but look shiny and OK from 10 feet or so. So long as it gets through scrutineering that's all that really matters.

Next job is to fit one of the 520 rear sprockets I had made (one road gearing, one hill climb) on to the road bike. Still got the 14T 520 front from FE MK1 but I'll be also be looking for a 13T - I think you can get them from Italy cheaper than having a special made - or did any Morini use one as standard?
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Not the best day yesterday for riding a bike with a 250 headlight and a non-functioning charging system so I left it at home and went to the Peterborough Classic Live event via NLM on the ER6n.

Stuart was minding all the shop on his own but he kindly dug in the spares bins to find me a set of plain clutch plates. Had a long chat with him about the finer points of clutch setup to sanity check my work. Also on cams, cam timing and the meaning of life. As he has a Gilera Saturno currently for sale I suggested I could put him in touch with Luigi Frigerio in Italy if he had any queries Uncle Bob Wright couldn't answer.

A bit late getting to Petrborough by a huge dog leg. Not an extensive show but hopefully the well laid out and excellently crewed stand will have attracted some new members. CJW should be on commission from the factory as I'm sure he had pretty near convinced one person to buy a new 1200 scrambler.

Only purchased a pack of zip ties, but enjoyed chatting to people.

I managed to get another 20 miles or so on it on Friday afternoon and with the new carbs featuring 125 instead of 132 main jets and clean pod filters it was going very, very much better. Still a bit of a flat spot ast 1/4 ish throttle but it can be ridden through not like the brick wall over 1/2 under load of before. If anything now running a tad weak as the stainless 2:1 had gone a touch straw coloured after some short bursts of higher revs and wider throttle. Definitely a step in the right direction though.

So, off in to the garage to fit the new plates now, contemplate the colour of the front plug and possibly have a search for the '50' PHBH slides that should be in the shed somewhere.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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I expect you are all keen to read the latest post in what seems to have turned in to a blog ;-)

Clutch sorted. You can see from the photo that the plain plates were beyond a bit of TLC with abrasive sheet and a flat surface. I didn't bother getting new ones until I'd at least got it running reasonably by just fitting new friction plates. The centre/basket end float was still perfect and with all new plates and the new springs I'd already treated it to a brief 'creep' test on the drive was very encouraging. I did clean up the pressure plate though as that wasn't too bad.

The front plug was a bit pale but I've seen worse. The spare PHBH slides turned out to be 30s not 50s. Another senior moment. The original carbs from 30 years ago must have been 40s or 30s. Should have gone for the default offered of 50s on the new carbs, then I would have a set of three pairs. At 30 quid each I think I'll hope to tweak the idle circuit and needle height to ride through the flat spot. No point in super fine tuning really until I fit the Benjy Straw WeeVee race treplica 2:1 system I got from harrymuffin. Will it be too loud to risk running on the road I wonder? Might be worth making it fit now as any modifications should be the same when this engine is back in the project 2C bike.

The "never throw anything away shed" search was well worth it as I discovered some of the missing VHBH carbn bits with a view to trying those at some point. Also some Gilera Saturno parts which I can turn in to cash to throw in to the money pit.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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Clutch much, much better. Not perfect but it will do. Possibly needs bedding in a bit, or perhaps the WeeVee special shims under the spring cups (came with the hex head spring nuts years ago) on the 375 make for the perfection I'm used to.

Tried the 30 slides. A mixed result. Seemed a bit better at transition at about 1/4 throttle but needed the throttle stops in a long way (logical I suppose as the cutaway is significantly lower) and the idle mixture screws only out half a turn (significantly richer cutaway) . Still a bit fussy if whacked open hard rather than progressively. Gone the wrong way I reckon so I will put the 40s back and concentrate on the needles for now. Might try 45s or 50s, but not until the final exhaust system is on.

Burned my fingers and thumbs having to put the front head exhaust port nut back in on the car park of a farm shop. I should have known from experience that with a 2:1 on a 350 in a 2C the front one is inclined to loosen when hot as the header is at strained angle. Didn't bother to wire them (as on the 375) as the engine won't be in this frame for long. No tools with me, but I got it back in well enough to ride home gently. Redone once cold, but the NLM stainless 2:1 came with half rings that seem a bit deep for the depth of the port so the nuts don't go in far enough for my liking. Possibly because I'm using a Kanguro head (though I think that's actually on the rear - senior moment again)? I'll wire them both tomorrow and that should do for the rest of the running in and attempts at approximate jetting. Hoping the WeVee racer replica system which doesn't use half rings (the design allows the nuts to be slid on to the pipes before they are married to the silencer) will work better. I might take harrymuffin up on his offer to do a cunning 'trombone' modification on the headers designed to accommodate engines with cylinders with an extra fin ( so raising the exhaust port height slightly)compared to the one that should be in a 250 frame. Not until I put the project engine in the project frame though. I'll probably take it on a trailer to a dyno place for final fine tuning.

The battery got so low that the indicators went on strike. Not helped by the front brake light switch going peculiar and leaving the brake light on. Fiddled with it for a while but in the end fitted a new one that actually came as a rear brake light switch for the Tarozzi rearsets I had on FE Mk1 and sold. "Never throw anything away", triumphs again. Now on charge.

I'm wondering if on a 'racer' it would be worth unwinding the lighting coils and running just an ignition one. Saves a bit of weight and might release the tiny bit of power absorbed generating voltage not required? I'll ask on the main forum. Seems a shame to ruin a good stator experimenting, but this one isn't so far as lighting is concerned anyway.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Post by EVguru »

Where did you put the conical plate in the clutch?

I like a slim stainless pipe clamp with a tab added to engage with an exhaust nut castellation rather than lockwire. A less elegant, but simpler solution is just to put a clamp around the outside of the nut with the adjuster butted up to the head.

There's no power advantage to removing the coils, the loss is mostly due to the magnets passing the Iron laminations. You'd want to cut one down to two poles.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

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EVguru wrote:Where did you put the conical plate in the clutch?

I like a slim stainless pipe clamp with a tab added to engage with an exhaust nut castellation rather than lockwire. A less elegant, but simpler solution is just to put a clamp around the outside of the nut with the adjuster butted up to the head.

There's no power advantage to removing the coils, the loss is mostly due to the magnets passing the Iron laminations. You'd want to cut one down to two poles.
In first as you recommend. It's not really an issue, just not as perfectly smooth as when I had the stack from the 375 in it (including the weevee bits).

Hmm. That quick and dirty fix with a clamp round the nut sounds like a good plan for now,

Ah, OK. I though it might not be worth the hassle. The advantage of the Bosch systems on the old Rotax 2T singles was that the lighting coil was an add on for the Enduro version and could be simply removed. Mind you the ignition charging coils on those used to fail under heat stress with monotonous regularity. Particularly problematically, as it seemed to put the timing out before dying completely. Not good when circuit racing.
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Re: Forgotten Era Speed Hill Climb 350 Morini MKII

Post by 72degrees »

One step forward, at least one back.

I put the 40 slides back in this morning, raised the needles a notch and re-balanced. Mixture screws back to about 1 1/2 and a nice steady idle. Going much better in the mid range. Still a bit hesitant if whacked open but much more responsive in the 1/4 to 1/2 throttle range. A chilly day (though nice dry roads), so that may have helped.

I'm still very unhappy with the exhaust ports. Did the later heads have deeper port threads? Might have to experiment with different half rings. Not an issue with the racer WeeVee replica 2:1 which I "offered up" this afternoon. That doesn't use half rings and the headers go nicely in to the ports with new gaskets and the nuts screw in good and deep. It doesn't fit too well otherwise though and will need modifying. Because it tucks in so neatly, with a 2C frame, the front header makes contact with the frame. Doesn't bend back in quite enough either by the footrest, so the silencer is at a very jaunt angle and rather far from the frame mounting. Definitely grounding out territory. The centre stand also stops the rear pipe going in the ideal position. Perhaps it was custom built for a race bike without stand? The hill climber won't have one - so that may help, but it will need tweaking somehow by bending the headers, or perhaps extra joints. No point spending any more time on it until the project engine is back in the frame to be used.

I'll start it up with it jury-rigged tomorrow though, just to hear how it sounds. That is once I've discovered why the clutch has developed slight slip when stone cold. Those rust pocked old plain plates were obviously providing extra friction. It may be that I just haven't bottomed out the spring nuts properly as I hate over-tightening them. A quick fix for now may be just borrowing the hex-head nuts and cups with 'washers' for extra pressure from the 375. I'm certain I got the stack correct and after the run it was fine when it was good and hot. Not slipping while riding. Just slipping now when cold when coming up to compression on starting. Odd, given all new plates and springs. No trace of oil at all so the seals are fine. The 375 stack with the spring 'helpers' never slips, even on the couple of occasions when the seals have needed doing. I'll measure up the shim/washer dimensions used on that and see if I can match them. Slightly heavier clutch pull (as on the 375) will result, but not a problem on hill climbs.

The 125H tank is coming along. First top coat of Hammerite smooth red rubbed down ready for the next. It will still have the odd dimple but I don't want to spend much more time on it. Found a pair of badges in the shed, so it will look quite nice from a distance.

Still got to put the 520 sprockets on and make a start on getting the front brake working. Those can wait until I've sorted the clutch and got the NLM 2:1 system back on securely. More running in required (though gave it decent bursts to over 7500 several times this morning) and carb tuning while the weather is still reasonable.
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