1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

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EVguru
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by EVguru »

Paz2112 wrote:The bike is so light and nimble it begs to be leaned into corners.
You should try a 250!
I had OK throttle response up to 5000 revs or so then a hesitation until I got to 6000 where upon things opened up again. I suspect that carbs are not properly balanced and also the mixture may be a little rich.
A mid range hole is not that uncommon. It can be ignition, but often a change of atomiser can help. It's a little far up for carb balance to have much of an effect.
I had initially what felt like a good clutch but after about 6 miles it seemed to shorten and only had bite at the last of the lever. I also suspect that I was having a little clutch slip in the initial pull in higher gears 4th 5th.
First thing is to strip and clean the clutch. Being a dry clutch there's no where for the dust to go. If you've got free play in the cable and the operating lever isn't contacting the side case, then check the spring cups for stretch. They can bottom out on the clutch hub and cause slip.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Sonomamorini
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by Sonomamorini »

Beautiful work. I have a later 3 1/2 ( from 1983 ) yet acknowledge a lot of the charm of the original design on the bike was lost over the years
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Paz2112
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Location: Northern Ireland

Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by Paz2112 »

Need some guidance, the master cylinder seems to be leaking now that i have started to use it. NLM offer either a 16mm or 19mm seal kit, question is (probably dumb) what does this apply to, is it the diameter of the piston?

2nd question, i am going to get the rims respoked with stainless spokes. While apart i am going to clean and polish the hubs and rims. What advice can members give on process and products for a good and lasting result.
My Other Italian V-Twin is an Italian V-Twin
penman
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Location: Milton Keynes, UK
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by penman »

The 16 or 19 mm refers to the master cylinder bore.

As a newcomer to Morini and having just been through this, can I offer a small piece of advice? Make sure you replace the reservoir cap securely while bleeding the brakes. If you leave the cap off, you will be rewarded by a jet of brake fluid out of the reservoir, damaging your paintwork and causing a sense of humour failure. Don't ask me how I know this...!

Good luck!

On the subject of polishing aluminium and alloy hubs, etc. I use emery paper to remove the worst of it, old lacquer, scratches and so on, finishing with 1200 grit. Then go over it with Solvol using a polishing mop in a drill as far as possible. This gives a great finish. Keeping it like that is the next problem. Regular polishing works of course, and I use Solvol again on a toothbrush (Poundland, 3 for £1) Don't use it on your teeth. The other option is to re-lacquer it, but I find it very difficult to get a good finish, even if it was like a mirror to start with. It will be interesting to hear other people's suggestions.
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
EVguru
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by EVguru »

Paz2112 wrote:Need some guidance, the master cylinder seems to be leaking now that i have started to use it. NLM offer either a 16mm or 19mm seal kit, question is (probably dumb) what does this apply to, is it the diameter of the piston?
It's the piston diameter.

Stock setup for a 350 with single front disc is a 16mm cylinder, which many find gives a rather 'wooden' feel. A 19mm cylinder is stock for a (factory) twin disc setup and likewise gives a rather wooden feel. The 250 uses the same front wheel disc and calliper, but a 14mm cylinder, which feels much better. Some owners have gone smaller still, 12.7mm (1/2") being quite popular and I think some have gone down to 11mm for a modern two-finger lever. Personally I like a heavier/firm lever and find that the 16mm cylinder paired with twin discs is perfect.

Complete new mastercylinders are quite affordable and are pretty much guaranteed to work. I'd strip your cylinder before ordering seals and make sure it's in good enough condition to rebuild first. Make sure any seal kit includes the dust bellows too if yours isn't in good condition, it holds the pushrod in place!
2nd question, i am going to get the rims respoked with stainless spokes. While apart i am going to clean and polish the hubs and rims. What advice can members give on process and products for a good and lasting result.
For starters I wouldn't use stainless spokes. They'll be larger gauge than original and cannot be bent as tightly, which can lead to them fouling the calliper. A new set of good galvanised spokes are probably going to look good for long enough that there's a real risk that the owner will be dead before they need replacing again.

Many an original Borrani rim has been ruined by overpolishing to a Chrome like condition with the original size engraving blurred by the process. They would have been a fine satin polish originally, rather than a high shine. Likewise the spoke flanges on the hubs. I tend to use a very light glass bead blast on the rims, followed by various grades of Scotchbright. The hubs also get glass bead blasted, usually at a higher pressure. I'll then often paint them with an alloy wheel paint which leaves them looking freshly cast, but with a longer lasting finish.

Where hubs and backplates have been polished (it nearly always looks crap, because you just can't do it properly), I'll grit blast to create a new as cast finish.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
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Paz2112
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by Paz2112 »

Thankyou guys for the advice. Its apart and 16mm so ill order the kit tomorrow. The cylinder looks good so should be an easy fix.

Paul, thanks for your accurate real world advice. I prefer a clean race look over a show bike look so i might just clean the existing spokes after removing them from the rim. Then i can clean the rim properly. Thankfully my rims have never been touched so a clean should look good.
My Other Italian V-Twin is an Italian V-Twin
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Paz2112
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by Paz2112 »

So lots of new parts have arrived from NLM and in it most importantly was the 16mm seal kit from Ariete. The kit has two seals and the rubber dust boot. My piston has three seals on it so my question is simple, which of the three seals does not get replaced?
My Other Italian V-Twin is an Italian V-Twin
norbert
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by norbert »

There is a problem about the 16mm Grimeca pistons:

There are two sorts of 16mm pistons! For the old ones (and that are normaly the ones in our bikes) there are no more seal kits available. As far as I know even in italy :roll:

This is the type of the old pistons
k-16er Handbremskolben altes Modell mit Loch in Nut.JPG
k-16er Handbremskolben altes Modell mit Loch in Nut.JPG (20.23 KiB) Viewed 20672 times
When I restored the last time a 16mm brake therefore I had to buy a new piston that has a complete diferent sealing ring (took me 32€ complete)
k-16er Kolben neues Model.JPG
k-16er Kolben neues Model.JPG (33.81 KiB) Viewed 20672 times
Some years ago I changed it for a 13 mm pump (two disks with stainless steel brake pipes) and I´m very content with that 2 finger break now :wink:
k-Grimeca 13 mm für Stummel.JPG
k-Grimeca 13 mm für Stummel.JPG (28.8 KiB) Viewed 20672 times
ciao
norbert
Last edited by norbert on 21 Apr 2016 20:45, edited 1 time in total.
norbert
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by norbert »

This is the 13 mm pump with the inclined tank for clip ons
13er Pumpe.JPG
13er Pumpe.JPG (43.43 KiB) Viewed 20671 times
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Paz2112
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by Paz2112 »

Image
This is my removed piston and three seals (shown in the order fitted). The kit I got is from Ariete Cod number 12873-PO, it has two seals and a dust boot.


Norbert, The piston in your first picture and your second picture (red background) look very similar. What were the differences if any? DId you just use the two new seals and leave out the middle seal? From looking at how the piston works inside the cylinder I do not think that there should be any seal in the middle recess, I can't see that it would actually do anything. Maybe the kit is correct and some other bodger fitted a seal where it was not required.
My Other Italian V-Twin is an Italian V-Twin
norbert
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by norbert »

Your piston to me looks like the first one (the old one). Normaly you won´t find this new generacion of pistons in a Morini pump.

Is there a hole in the first recess like in my first picture?
Then it should be the old one (don´t remember it well, but i think the new one does not have this hole).
The seal in the first recess (always counting from the outlet, the right site of the pictures) on the old piston is a massive ring.

This seal of the new pistons is quite diferent, its more like a collar not massive. The open part of that collar (don´t know how to explain it better :oops: ) shows towards the outlet.

Be aware that there are no notable scratches on the piston.

I agree that in the middel there should not be any seal!!!

So if your kit has that massive seal, it should work :wink:
dunk 1
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by dunk 1 »

I replaced the seals on mine a couple of weeks ago - it's a 79 sport and has a hole in the first recess near the spring so by the previous post this would make it an early piston. It sounds like I got the same kit as you - a bellows - a simple ring and one with a groove in one side. Due to a little confusion -see post - I had to check with nlm and they confirmed that the centre recess is left clear -the o type ring is away from the spring and the grooved one is fitted by the spring with the groove facing toward it - no one mentioned different types of piston so it's now a little worrying although it seems to be working fine now fitted -if a little in the wooden side - Duncan
dunk
norbert
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by norbert »

When I was envolved in brake items some years ago, I had some chats with Jörg Bohnenstiel http://www.bomoto.eu/index.php a real specialist in brake systems. He told me that there was no way to find the sealings for the old pistons even in Italy (and he has very good contacts). We were discussing what that hole should be for. The only thing that came up to our minds is, that amounting the pressure in the system the oil might press the massiv seal to the cilinder. The new seals are not that massive. Maybe the pressure might disform them on the long run. I don´t know, even it migt run well for years, don´t know. He adviceed me to use the new pston an so I did :roll:

If you have a pump from a Enduro, you can try that one as well, I guess. You´ll need less power with the finger because they are also smaler than 16 mm (maybe 14)
dunk 1
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by dunk 1 »

I asked what the hole was for and they couldn't tell me - also why the hole at the spring end had a thread - hope you didn't take that as doubting your information Norbert - as usual am operating from minimal knowledge and was a little concerned that I may have made an error - Duncan
dunk
norbert
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Re: 1977 3.5 Sport Restoration

Post by norbert »

No hombre, any doubt or idea is wellcome :lol:
I´m just telling my experience with that stuff and what we were thinking about that hole may be far from truth :wink: This theorie about that hole was already a desperate one, the only one that occured to us :lol:

I´m not sure but I think ther was some other diferent measure too :roll:

Anyhow it seems to be right clear that there are no original massive seals any more nowhere.

So keep us informed Duncan, how things proceed!

norbert
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