Steve if we ever meet up I'll honour you on that pint! The Ebay listing was a pickup and rotor for a 250cc, and cost £75, which for that price I'm willing to take a risk. However that is a moot point as the parts are for a 250T.
The play on the pickup is actually only less than 0.5mm, but I agree with your point, it would potentially get exaggerated by the time it reaches the crank, and allow a change in advance and retard.
I haven't heard of Nuovaray. Do they make new replacement pickups and rotors?
Three years later, still having problems with idle
-
Steve Brown
- Posts: 1401
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Yes they do both and transducers too. I take your point about the half millimetre but at that radius it must be a few degrees, and at the crank it will be exactly twice as much. So even 5 degrees on the pick up is 10 0n the crank-that's significant and is enough to make an engine at normal idle rpm and timing stall by going from 20 degrees to 10 before TDC. Is your other Morini the same pick up type? Swap the bits from that-either the rotor alone if it's the same series or the whole pick up assembly otherwise. If you haven't already it's a free go.Long_Road wrote:Steve if we ever meet up I'll honour you on that pint! The Ebay listing was a pickup and rotor for a 250cc, and cost £75, which for that price I'm willing to take a risk. However that is a moot point as the parts are for a 250T.
The play on the pickup is actually only less than 0.5mm, but I agree with your point, it would potentially get exaggerated by the time it reaches the crank, and allow a change in advance and retard.
I haven't heard of Nuovaray. Do they make new replacement pickups and rotors?
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
First ride in a long time today, and the rain wasn't going to stop me. I managed to fix the play in the pickup rotor with some thread lock, just to see if it made a difference. When warming up for an ignition timing adjustment she didn't want to idle with the 50 pilots so swapped back to the 48s which seemed to help. This may be irrelevant.
The erratic idle is still very much present but it didn't change in characteristic the whole 50 minutes we were out, which is better than it was 3 years ago. The first 5 mins the carburation was clean on all throttle openings but once fully warmed a hesitation developed on initial throttle openings. I'm not concerned as I know this a common thing with modern fuel and these bikes. On larger throttle openings there were no holes, quarter to mid throttle the acceleration was smooth and surprisingly strong. Full throttle felt a little disappointing, but we're still running in after the 375cc rebore so I'll address that when I can.
I'll try a pickup and rotor that are known to be good next. Whilst riding I was thinking about the charging issues I had on my little Honda CB175. Even when new these bikes didn't produce enough to charge the battery at idle. Sat in traffic with lights on the idle would start to falter, switch them off it would recover. I sorted it with a new reg/rec and LEDs.
Some years ago NLM replaced my flywheel as it had lost it's magnetism, so I believe (but don't know) it is pushing out enough to keep things running. Could a 40 year old reg/rec cause idle speed issues?
PS I really enjoyed being out on the old girl again.
The erratic idle is still very much present but it didn't change in characteristic the whole 50 minutes we were out, which is better than it was 3 years ago. The first 5 mins the carburation was clean on all throttle openings but once fully warmed a hesitation developed on initial throttle openings. I'm not concerned as I know this a common thing with modern fuel and these bikes. On larger throttle openings there were no holes, quarter to mid throttle the acceleration was smooth and surprisingly strong. Full throttle felt a little disappointing, but we're still running in after the 375cc rebore so I'll address that when I can.
I'll try a pickup and rotor that are known to be good next. Whilst riding I was thinking about the charging issues I had on my little Honda CB175. Even when new these bikes didn't produce enough to charge the battery at idle. Sat in traffic with lights on the idle would start to falter, switch them off it would recover. I sorted it with a new reg/rec and LEDs.
Some years ago NLM replaced my flywheel as it had lost it's magnetism, so I believe (but don't know) it is pushing out enough to keep things running. Could a 40 year old reg/rec cause idle speed issues?
PS I really enjoyed being out on the old girl again.
- IMG_0039a.JPG (112.4 KiB) Viewed 6207 times
-
Steve Brown
- Posts: 1401
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Long_Road wrote:First ride in a long time today, and the rain wasn't going to stop me. I managed to fix the play in the pickup rotor with some thread lock,
I doubt if that will hold for long so still go for the test with another pick up as you say.
Could a 40 year old reg/rec cause idle speed issues?
No, no connection at all. Unless someone has been very creative with the wiring. The flywheel magnetism can affect ignition and charging of course
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
I did have an ignition problem on the 2C/375 years ago during a TT trip. It manifested itself quite suddenly as a reluctance to rev - but only if the lights were on. It would start and idle (for lumpy cam/big carbs/2:1 values of idle) reasonably well, but exhibited a kind of rev limiter effect if the lights were on. Could have been rotor magnetism I suppose. Possibly an earthing issue. Switch the lights off , or keep it below 6000 or so (I misremember) and it was fine. Unlike the occasion when the Gilera Saturno/Nordwest kept blowing the fuse for the lights at the Manx GP. That necessitated an 'interesting' late evening ride round the course from Douglas to Peel with Messrs Sims and Webber riding navigator and tail end charlie (though I don't remember which). If I Remember Correctly I had the ignition winding rewound and the rotor re-magnetised when I got back from The Island - which cured it.
Erratic idling is unlikely to be reg/rec related I would have thought.
Erratic idling is unlikely to be reg/rec related I would have thought.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Quick update. Tried a known good pickup and rotor in the garage, no test ride. No difference to idle behavior.
Noticed oil on rear cylinder fins - thread of rear spark plug oily, and top of piston through hole looks wet. Electrode not wet - sooty like front plug (rich idle). Also, the tinkling rattle has returned.
Haven't had time to investigate further as work is mental at the moment. I've had problems in the past with the rear cylinder; the piston in it when I bought it had a part of the side broken off, the second piston shed it's gudgeon pin clip and the pin wore a groove in the cylinder wall (that's why I got it bored out to 375cc). I'm starting to think these failures are not coincidental.
Not jumping to conclusions yet. I'm going to test compression of both cylinders and try running the engine one cylinder at a time, then check out the valve operation. Got a feeling the rear cylinder will have to come off.
One step forward, two steps back.
Noticed oil on rear cylinder fins - thread of rear spark plug oily, and top of piston through hole looks wet. Electrode not wet - sooty like front plug (rich idle). Also, the tinkling rattle has returned.
Haven't had time to investigate further as work is mental at the moment. I've had problems in the past with the rear cylinder; the piston in it when I bought it had a part of the side broken off, the second piston shed it's gudgeon pin clip and the pin wore a groove in the cylinder wall (that's why I got it bored out to 375cc). I'm starting to think these failures are not coincidental.
Not jumping to conclusions yet. I'm going to test compression of both cylinders and try running the engine one cylinder at a time, then check out the valve operation. Got a feeling the rear cylinder will have to come off.
One step forward, two steps back.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Chiz!
Well one thing crossed off the list. I could offer some definietly not worn carbs, but a) they would be PHBH 28s and b) the FE wasn't running very well on them at low rpm when I started it up last week (after 18 months unstarted to be fair). That wasn't with the pickup I sent, to be clear!
Definitely time to crank up the formal scientific method (Pirsig ZATAMM).
You will get there in the end.
Well one thing crossed off the list. I could offer some definietly not worn carbs, but a) they would be PHBH 28s and b) the FE wasn't running very well on them at low rpm when I started it up last week (after 18 months unstarted to be fair). That wasn't with the pickup I sent, to be clear!
Definitely time to crank up the formal scientific method (Pirsig ZATAMM).
You will get there in the end.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
All I can offer is the solid truth that when you have sorted it, it will be the best bike ever!
MRC 3082½
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Re tinkling sound: is it coming from a particular cylinder? Can you hear anything more by listening using e.g. a long screwdriver as a “stethoscope”. Don’t suppose it is due to the heat shield resonating? Spark plug tight enough? Not a clutch rattle? At least the ignition seems to have been checked out.
John
John
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Molesworth and Zen in the same reply. Not heard either for many years but maybe both are apt in relation to the ownership of older bikes?72degrees wrote:Chiz!...
Can't offer anything but encouragement myself. I'm sure you'll get it sorted in the end - as any fule kno.
-
mad muller
- Posts: 182
- Joined: 19 Aug 2011 11:29
- Location: liverpool, england
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
It's worth checking the piston is the right way round the blue book has an image the combustion chambers in the piston have to be in correct orientation and the piston bosses are offset if your taking the barrell off just a thought as you say a reoccurring prob with rear pot easily done in a hasty rebuild , well it was for me ! I did it the bike ran but badly but not damaged i realized what I had done and barrells were off yet again you can reuse the gaskets put some silicone on them before bolt down hope you get it sorted nice looking bike by the way.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Finally got some time to investigate the problem, and it is what I had feared the whole time. The exact same failure as before, the gudgeon pin clip broken up and the pin allowed to drift and cut a groove into the cylinder wall. A newly rebored cylinder wall. Rats.
Looking at the conrod, the small end bush has moved. There is a lot of side play (not up and down) with the conrod on the crank. I don't know if this is normal. I have no comparison but I would say the conrod bearings are shot, putting lateral pressure on the gudgeon pin and piston, and melting the side of the piston. That’s my theory anyway. The rings look fine though, and the piston was fitted in the correct orientation. The brand new 375 piston. Rats.
I haven’t looked at the front cylinder yet. I’m at a crossroads; try and rebuild the bottom end with the limited time, experience and tools I have, look for a replacement engine, or take it to Lusso Veloce and spend more than what I paid for the bike. Also, I believe that this wasn't even the cause of the idle issue, so factor in new carbs too.
Or I sell the damn thing. I’m gutted. Once again, thank you everybody for your help and encouragement with this one.
- IMG_0065.JPG (70.98 KiB) Viewed 6075 times
- IMG_0068.JPG (53.34 KiB) Viewed 6075 times
- IMG_0073.JPG (51.79 KiB) Viewed 6075 times
Or I sell the damn thing. I’m gutted. Once again, thank you everybody for your help and encouragement with this one.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
That's such a shame, but there is something fundamentally wrong here.
Tell me that the rear con rod is the right way round?
The two larger parts at the bearing end should face each other.
A common mistake is failure to relieve the radius of the big end bearing shell at the crank web side, which causes the conrod to bind.
The conrod clearance side to side play is 0.3 to 0.45mm.
I think that you should take it to someone who can measure such things as straightness
of the conrod and bearing clearances. Then make a decision.
Gutted for you too.
Mark
Tell me that the rear con rod is the right way round?
The two larger parts at the bearing end should face each other.
- conrods.png (38.6 KiB) Viewed 6050 times
The conrod clearance side to side play is 0.3 to 0.45mm.
I think that you should take it to someone who can measure such things as straightness
of the conrod and bearing clearances. Then make a decision.
Gutted for you too.
Mark
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Well that explains the tinkling noise I guess.
The only part of the Forgotten Error engine rebuild I didn't do myself was fitting the new rods after the crank re-grind and timing side roller bearing conversion. I left that to Ollie at NLM.
Otherwise, it's a much less complex bottom end job than some I think. It's the only one I've ever attempted other than a 1929 350 Raleigh.
You can workaround some of the special tool requirements with ingenuity. Do the club still have a tool hire scheme? I have no plans to use the holder and extractor that I purchased, so you could borrow those.
Plenty of folk here to ask for help and Evguru videos to watch.
The problem, however, is that if, as seems likely, it needs new rods, there are none to be had. I had the last pair NLM had on the shelf (the big end eyes had gone oval on mine). Even good used ones aren't exactly cheap, and there's the regrind to factor in. Pistons and reboring . A whole set of bearings and oil seals is pretty reasonable though. I stopped keeping an excel tally of what my engine rebuild cost or I might have abandoned it. Still cheaper than paying someone to do all the work.
Tough decision. The only upside is that an eventually sweetly running Morini 350 is a joy forever, and even more so if you can get it that way yourself.
The only part of the Forgotten Error engine rebuild I didn't do myself was fitting the new rods after the crank re-grind and timing side roller bearing conversion. I left that to Ollie at NLM.
Otherwise, it's a much less complex bottom end job than some I think. It's the only one I've ever attempted other than a 1929 350 Raleigh.
You can workaround some of the special tool requirements with ingenuity. Do the club still have a tool hire scheme? I have no plans to use the holder and extractor that I purchased, so you could borrow those.
Plenty of folk here to ask for help and Evguru videos to watch.
The problem, however, is that if, as seems likely, it needs new rods, there are none to be had. I had the last pair NLM had on the shelf (the big end eyes had gone oval on mine). Even good used ones aren't exactly cheap, and there's the regrind to factor in. Pistons and reboring . A whole set of bearings and oil seals is pretty reasonable though. I stopped keeping an excel tally of what my engine rebuild cost or I might have abandoned it. Still cheaper than paying someone to do all the work.
Tough decision. The only upside is that an eventually sweetly running Morini 350 is a joy forever, and even more so if you can get it that way yourself.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
That is a gruesome sight. Not a place any of us wants to be in. I have had something similar but that was on a car, remedied in that case by a simple but expensive engine replacement. There are some rods on eBay in Italy at the mo, don’t know any more than that. As said already there must be an issue which lead to this failure. Let’s hope someone can help.
It’s going to take some money to assess and fix though.
Best of luck with it.
John
It’s going to take some money to assess and fix though.
Best of luck with it.
John