Decided to be thorough and ultrasonic cleaned the BS carbs, and rebuilt them including newly purchased o-rings and washers for the mixture screws - also added washers to the idle screws, which already had it's o-rings. Also blew all airways and chambers through with the brake cleaner. I am now confident the carbs are good.
Considering how little difference this made, I decided to have a look at the ignition timing. With a timing light I have noticed the timing mark on the flywheel seems to wander, advancing when the idle speed increased and retard when it slowed. Blip the throttle and the timing retards until the engine stalls. I don't know if the wandering is within normal parameters.
I filmed the bike, in case it helps. It's on the youtubes, and these are the links:
Vid 1 https://youtu.be/6bl4Ga5a5gg
Vid 2 https://youtu.be/vpk6rf5U0J4
Vid 3 https://youtu.be/LQ9VRomEh9c
I wish the sound was better, but you get the idea. I fear I'm running out of ideas.
Three years later, still having problems with idle
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
There is a strange tinkling (like pinking) sound on all the videos do you know what that is? Anyway a few suggestions:
Maybe it would be worth putting the strobe on the rear pot and see if there is similar variance?
Check the the pickup rotor is tight, and that it's not damaged in any way (same for the pickup).
Camshaft pulley tight and keyway not damaged.
All ignition electrical connectors are clean and tight. (including the earth points).
Consider joining the Sachse ignition group buy
?
Hope it helps.
Cheers,
Kamel
Maybe it would be worth putting the strobe on the rear pot and see if there is similar variance?
Check the the pickup rotor is tight, and that it's not damaged in any way (same for the pickup).
Camshaft pulley tight and keyway not damaged.
All ignition electrical connectors are clean and tight. (including the earth points).
Consider joining the Sachse ignition group buy
?Hope it helps.
Cheers,
Kamel
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Hi,
The jittering at tickover like that is normal, could you film it with gentle advancing easy on the throttle and build revs slowly both cylinder as Kamel suggests
The advance range is often not very much, but it should be progressive and become less jittery as the revs increase
I too am worried about the ticking noise, sticking (bent) valve?
Not the general Morini clatter!
Often with cold engine there is a faster chatter that dies but not a ticking,
which is sort of regular.
Sometimes there are pickup faults that cause the advance then retard problem
but i thought that the checks for the broken/loose rotor as Kamel suggests were ok
Is it red pickup with the correct black flat transducers (green spot)
If you can get a spare pickup just to satisfy that this isn't the problem?
Mark
The jittering at tickover like that is normal, could you film it with gentle advancing easy on the throttle and build revs slowly both cylinder as Kamel suggests
The advance range is often not very much, but it should be progressive and become less jittery as the revs increase
I too am worried about the ticking noise, sticking (bent) valve?
Not the general Morini clatter!
Often with cold engine there is a faster chatter that dies but not a ticking,
which is sort of regular.
Sometimes there are pickup faults that cause the advance then retard problem
but i thought that the checks for the broken/loose rotor as Kamel suggests were ok
Is it red pickup with the correct black flat transducers (green spot)
If you can get a spare pickup just to satisfy that this isn't the problem?
Mark
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
The mark should match at 6000 revs, not at idle speed.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Yes it does seem a little too advanced at idle but from a fast idle to full it's only about 15mm on the rotor circumference.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
That is a tad 'tinkly' isn't it!
The engine I rebuilt for the FE is a bit over tappity, but I put that down to loss of quietening ramps on the reground cam.
If we are sharing videos of running Morinis, here's one for comparison, here's one at a distance of, a tuned one - and an old gimmer
https://youtu.be/OJH0qw6barU
The engine I rebuilt for the FE is a bit over tappity, but I put that down to loss of quietening ramps on the reground cam.
If we are sharing videos of running Morinis, here's one for comparison, here's one at a distance of, a tuned one - and an old gimmer
https://youtu.be/OJH0qw6barU
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Perhaps it is pinking then if it’s that far advanced?
-
Steve Brown
- Posts: 1401
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Maybe it's just the quality of the sound recording as you mentioned, but I think mine sound like that when recorded on a phone camera.
Looking at your 3rd video I think you have a home made mark there? which is lined up at idle? If so that looks about right for at idle rpm. You say it advances with engine rpm increase? (I think-there's so much here to read and remember) If so that sounds ok too. At some point you said it retards when it stalls-(I think!) That would sound right too, as the rpm drops the ignition point will back off towards tdc and beyond, BUT is it retarding just before it stalls? That might suggest an ignition system failure. Without expensive kit and a very good understanding of electronics (the majority of us-including me-don't have either) all you can do is substitute components, like you did with your carbs.
A simple way would be to do as Kamel suggests and go for the Sachse kit. Finding replacement bits for the standard system is a bit more complicated as there are so many parts from different places that look about right but aren't really what you or your bike want. I suspect the ignition is the weak point here, it's a good system but the components are getting old now and even when new were a lower energy system than we are used to now. They were delicate when new as well and many of us have damaged them without knowing it! My own brand new bike was messed up during it's PDI by the dealer before I even picked it up, it took over a year to sort it as the dealer was useless (now long gone happily) I didn't know how it all worked and it took NLM a morning to fix it.
Meant to say-those marks, as I can't see them properly-is the lower mark the PMS/TDC mark? and the upper mark a DIY for idle advance position as opposed to the ANT1 full advance position?
So many questions-so many possibilities! Is it the right oil and paint too?
Looking at your 3rd video I think you have a home made mark there? which is lined up at idle? If so that looks about right for at idle rpm. You say it advances with engine rpm increase? (I think-there's so much here to read and remember) If so that sounds ok too. At some point you said it retards when it stalls-(I think!) That would sound right too, as the rpm drops the ignition point will back off towards tdc and beyond, BUT is it retarding just before it stalls? That might suggest an ignition system failure. Without expensive kit and a very good understanding of electronics (the majority of us-including me-don't have either) all you can do is substitute components, like you did with your carbs.
A simple way would be to do as Kamel suggests and go for the Sachse kit. Finding replacement bits for the standard system is a bit more complicated as there are so many parts from different places that look about right but aren't really what you or your bike want. I suspect the ignition is the weak point here, it's a good system but the components are getting old now and even when new were a lower energy system than we are used to now. They were delicate when new as well and many of us have damaged them without knowing it! My own brand new bike was messed up during it's PDI by the dealer before I even picked it up, it took over a year to sort it as the dealer was useless (now long gone happily) I didn't know how it all worked and it took NLM a morning to fix it.
Meant to say-those marks, as I can't see them properly-is the lower mark the PMS/TDC mark? and the upper mark a DIY for idle advance position as opposed to the ANT1 full advance position?
So many questions-so many possibilities! Is it the right oil and paint too?
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Firstly, thank you everybody for your patience, and contributing your expertise to this topic. I would call myself passionate about this bike, but some might say it's more like an obsession, the amount of hours (and petrol) I have spent in the garage trying to cure it. I've fixed other bikes in the past but have never been pushed to such limits as with this one. It hasn't run right for 15+ years.
Back to the point. I will make another video with a better camera to capture the sound and to demonstrate a gentle rolling on of the throttle. I have become aware of that tinkling sound too, which started recently. It's why I rechecked the tappets. It's true that the videos I took do not compliment the Morini engine's sound, but that tinkle does stand out. Bit of a concern.
The flywheel does have pen marks on it to time the idle - I did it back in 2017. I think they are 5 degrees from the PMS marks. I have looked at both marks and both seem to behave the same. It's difficult to tell if the retarding/advancing is causing the change in engine speed or vice-versa. Chicken or egg? Revving the engine seems to highlight the behavior.
I also have some photos of the ignition setup, which I believe is all stock. The pickup rotor seems solid, the small rear plate does have less than 0.5mm play but the front plate and magnet are solidly mounted to the centre piece.
I would seriously consider replacing the ignition system, but the Sachse setup is just too expensive, even with a discount. Looks really nice though! I guess I should try a replacement Ducati pickup next. Also check everything is tight (that should be) and my electrical connections.
Back to the point. I will make another video with a better camera to capture the sound and to demonstrate a gentle rolling on of the throttle. I have become aware of that tinkling sound too, which started recently. It's why I rechecked the tappets. It's true that the videos I took do not compliment the Morini engine's sound, but that tinkle does stand out. Bit of a concern.
The flywheel does have pen marks on it to time the idle - I did it back in 2017. I think they are 5 degrees from the PMS marks. I have looked at both marks and both seem to behave the same. It's difficult to tell if the retarding/advancing is causing the change in engine speed or vice-versa. Chicken or egg? Revving the engine seems to highlight the behavior.
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Steve Brown
- Posts: 1401
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
OK, it does look like a complete set of the first series ignition. Now I've never seen one with as much advance range as your DIY markings! If yours advances that much from idle rpm to 6500rpm I'd be impressed too!
It does make me ask though the answer may be in the last few hundred posts, have you strobe checked it at 6500 rpm? That is the most important setting, (ANT) and I would expect it to retard to a point somewhere around 20 odd degrees at idle rpm. This is why it's difficult to get a slow idle on these. It's still possible with the timing set right that you have something or even a second something, failing in your ignition. They are very old now.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean about movement on the rotor but I wouldn't want to find any movement on it. It's something to replace for sure.
Where are you? if you can make it to Lutterworth with the bike, I can loan you known good parts for long enough to test/prove the point. Even if it proves me wrong
It does make me ask though the answer may be in the last few hundred posts, have you strobe checked it at 6500 rpm? That is the most important setting, (ANT) and I would expect it to retard to a point somewhere around 20 odd degrees at idle rpm. This is why it's difficult to get a slow idle on these. It's still possible with the timing set right that you have something or even a second something, failing in your ignition. They are very old now.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean about movement on the rotor but I wouldn't want to find any movement on it. It's something to replace for sure.
Where are you? if you can make it to Lutterworth with the bike, I can loan you known good parts for long enough to test/prove the point. Even if it proves me wrong
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
I too, don't like the sound of any play in the pickup. I had an early one fail when it came loose years ago. That was as a result of fitting a 350 in a 250 that uses a mechanical tacho . I hadn't noticed that the deep hexagonal securing nut with square hole for the tacho drive hadn't tightened down fully on to the pickup rotor. I use an extra washer these days. It died slowly on the way back from the Morini AGM camping at Ranksborough Hall. Yes I probably should have stopped early to investigate.
It wouldn't be the first time I have lent someone a 'known good' red pickup. On that occasion it cured the problem.
I can get the one off the spare (as in out of the bike awaiting a swap) 350 engine pretty easily and pop it in a jiffy bag. PM me.
It wouldn't be the first time I have lent someone a 'known good' red pickup. On that occasion it cured the problem.
I can get the one off the spare (as in out of the bike awaiting a swap) 350 engine pretty easily and pop it in a jiffy bag. PM me.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
I agree with Steve the advance at idle is more like 20 to 22 degrees BTDC about where the shiny line is on the rotor as ANT2 is 34 degrees.
There is also the possibility of a fault with one or both of the transducers. When you increase the vacuum the sparking voltage increases if the coil is weak or breaking down then it can take longer to spark or not at all hence the apparent retarding. This is also true of a weak generator coil.
Mark
There is also the possibility of a fault with one or both of the transducers. When you increase the vacuum the sparking voltage increases if the coil is weak or breaking down then it can take longer to spark or not at all hence the apparent retarding. This is also true of a weak generator coil.
Mark
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Good point about the generator coil. As Stuart used to say, unless that is up to spec you can waste a lot of time chasing spark problems. I may have missed it, but presumably it has decent resistance and more to point a good A/C output voltage at idle rpm?
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
Long_Road, this may be an optical illusion and I’ve tried zooming in as far as I can, but in the picture you’ve posted of the pickup it looks as though the short black ground is not connected to the pickup?
I would definitely take off the rotor and check it, as I don’t think there should be any play in the plates, and I wonder if the back plate is moving around when the engine is running.
Cheers,
Kamel.
I would definitely take off the rotor and check it, as I don’t think there should be any play in the plates, and I wonder if the back plate is moving around when the engine is running.
Cheers,
Kamel.
Re: Three years later, still having problems with idle
I see what you mean about the black wire - though my eyes are dim. Compare with a shot I took of one of mine just a couple of days ago. It might just be a bit of exposed conductor on Long-Road's , but definitely worth double checking.Kamel wrote:Long_Road, this may be an optical illusion and I’ve tried zooming in as far as I can, but in the picture you’ve posted of the pickup it looks as though the short black ground is not connected to the pickup?
I would definitely take off the rotor and check it, as I don’t think there should be any play in the plates, and I wonder if the back plate is moving around when the engine is running.
Cheers,
Kamel.
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