Another project!

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Re: Another project!

Post by EVguru »

That sort of damage often results from someone not disconnecting the battery and firing the starter motor up without the shoes being restrained by the drum.

I've got a good stock of e-start outer cases and might have a spare sprocket. You're only actually loading one or maybe two teeth at a time on a chain drive, so a missing tooth isn't good news.

The bearing is only meant to be a slip fit in the end bell, but shouldn't be loose. I have a custom tool for pulling the bearing. If it feels gritty, then its damaged.
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

Thanks Paul,
If you are able to offer a r/h cover and/or sprocket, I'd be grateful if you can PM me with the details. Thanks.

The damage to the casing is in line with the sprocket, not the shoes, so I'm guessing that when the chain broke, it bunched up and impacted the casing - probably breaking off that tooth in the process. It was bunched up in that area when I dismantled it and I had a bit of a struggle freeing it. I'm intrigued at why the chain broke, it's a violent break, the pivot pin snapped in 2 places and the side plates bent outwards with the broken bits still attached. Certainly I'll be investigating further before I try to start it. I was pleased that a new bit of chain was so cheap though!

I popped the seal out of the armature bearing and gave it a good wash out with carb cleaner, blew it out and re-packed it. I must admit it isn't silky smooth, but it's pretty smooth now - no longer gritty. I would still change it if I could get the damn thing off!

Interested by your comment on the missing tooth not being acceptable. Clearly it's not ideal, but since the chain is engaged on at least a dozen teeth at any time (I haven't actually counted, but I will tomorrow), I was assuming it wouldn't make that much difference. Maybe I'm wrong and certainly a new sprocket is the best way to go if available.
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2019 BMW F750GS Sport
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Re: Another project!

Post by EVguru »

penman wrote:Interested by your comment on the missing tooth not being acceptable. Clearly it's not ideal, but since the chain is engaged on at least a dozen teeth at any time (I haven't actually counted, but I will tomorrow), I was assuming it wouldn't make that much difference.
You may have a lot of teeth engaged, but only the last tooth is fully loaded. With a missing tooth you'll get a jerk as the load skips a roller and that will accelerate wear on the next tooth. It would be a bit of gamble as to how long it would last.

Laverda ran Nylon rear sprockets on some of their endurance racing bikes. Because the teeth on the Nylon sprocket are more flexible the load does get transferred to more teeth and the sprocket is still strong enough. A Nylon sprocket potentially gives an extended chain life, but if you neglect the chain it can run hot and soften the sprocket to the point that it fails.
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corsaro chris
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Re: Another project!

Post by corsaro chris »

Nice looking bike in original condition - not many with that pattern of pin striping around...

With regard to the starter - Paul isn't too far away from you, and neither is the Northern Home Counties meet up (held with the VMCC outside Bedford?). Might be worth a trip for a bit of comforting 'face time'! The 500 does, of course, also start with the kickstarter!

Have a good 'start' to the New Year :D

CC
"I'll use the Morini"
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

corsaro chris wrote:Nice looking bike in original condition - not many with that pattern of pin striping around...

With regard to the starter - Paul isn't too far away from you, and neither is the Northern Home Counties meet up (held with the VMCC outside Bedford?). Might be worth a trip for a bit of comforting 'face time'! The 500 does, of course, also start with the kickstarter!

Have a good 'start' to the New Year :D

CC
Thanks for the encouraging words! The colour has finally grown on me, so I'll be re-painting it in the original colour. The pinstriping really "works" for me and this morning I had a chat with my local paint man who is keen to reproduce it as is. I should have mentioned that the paint is in poor condition, the camera has been a little kind to it! Hopefully I'll post a splendid photo in a month or two.

I saw Paul yesterday and he has been able to supply a new r/h side cover and a replacement sprocket, and I ordered a new armature bearing this morning, so well on the way to sorting out all the starter woes.

Now I just have to do the front forks, paint EVERYTHING, fit a new cam belt, rebuild the clutch, sort out the wiring, have a look at the wheels and bearings, get a new chain and find out why the brakes don't do much except make scraping noises. Hmm, how long did I estimate, a month or two was it? ....... The good news, I've already done the carbs and they're ready to go back as soon as I get new rubber elbows (makes note on extended to do list).

A funny thing with these projects, so many of these tasks are inter-dependent, you seem to make no clear progress for ages, then suddenly it all comes together in an afternoon. I think that afternoon is a little way off!
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
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2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

A bit of progress!

First of all a before and after shot of the R/H cover I got from Paul. It was very dirty, which turned out to be a blessing in disguise. I had to be pretty aggressive with paraffin, parts washer fluid and even carb cleaner to get the inside clean - but when I turned it over, this treatment had also removed most of the pretty tatty paint from the outside. Ten minutes with wire brushes and it was ready to paint:
Image

Image

Another bit of success, the new armature bearing landed on the doormat this morning - £2.80 including post, so the starter will be going back together shortly.

I now decided to strip the clutch, in preparation for removing the L/H cover for painting. This is what I found:

Image

Clearly it's been leaking and there was Hylomar plastered everywhere. But putting Hylomar on top of oil and grease is never likely to end well as can be seen here:

Image

Oh well, that'll clean up OK. The wear to the clutch splines on the inner drum is pretty bad, but I'll clean them up as best I can and see how it goes. The clutch plates on the other hand look practically brand new, they just need a bit of oil cleaning off them.

I found some paper labels under one of the side covers, giving dates and mileages of oil changes. The most recent was 1987 and since then it's done less than 1000km, so I drained the oil - well I think that's what it was, thick black stuff. Now here's a question. There is a thick layer of black sludge in the bottom of the sump. I'm tempted to sluice it out with paraffin, probably using the air and paraffin spray gun via the oil strainer hole. Any better suggestions?

The painted bits are going off to the paint man on Tuesday so I need to get a move on with all the other jobs!

Regards to all,
Joe.
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1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
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72degrees
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Re: Another project!

Post by 72degrees »

penman wrote: I found some paper labels under one of the side covers, giving dates and mileages of oil changes. The most recent was 1987 and since then it's done less than 1000km, so I drained the oil - well I think that's what it was, thick black stuff. Now here's a question. There is a thick layer of black sludge in the bottom of the sump. I'm tempted to sluice it out with paraffin, probably using the air and paraffin spray gun via the oil strainer hole. Any better suggestions?
Given the state I found on splitting the crankcases of a 350 engine that had spent just 7 years sitting unused, I suspect that after nearly 30 years it will have a layer of something resembling thin lino over the bottom of the sump. See horror photo of the black coating, which took solvent and a brush to shift. I'm not sure your technique alone will "reach the parts...", because of the crankcase webs. Perhaps a dedicated flushing oil treatment might shift the rest of it once the engine is running again after your sluicing approach? Then that may run the risk of dislodging bits large enough to block a vital oil-way?

Lots of resurrected from standing for years machines on this forum - so someone must have worked out the best way and will be along soon ;)

Image
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

Thanks for that, 72degrees. That's certainly a scary photo! I had similar sludge in the sump of the K2 when I first looked at that. It was pretty soft though and it cleaned out OK using various bits of rag wound round stiff wire. Of course you can't get "round the corner" into the gearbox area, so I am hoping the sludge from that came out on the first oil change. I think I'll try the paraffin spray and then let it drip for a day or two before filling with oil - and I won't leave the first fill of oil in there for long. Hmm, I think this will be a messy procedure!

I stripped the primary this morning and found a few things I don't like. I'll put some pictures up later. Despite the problems, I'm rather enjoying working on this bike!
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Re: Another project!

Post by EVguru »

Brake and clutch cleaner in a pump spray bottle is quite effective.

You do have to wonder about the state of the crankshaft sludge traps though.
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

EVguru wrote:Brake and clutch cleaner in a pump spray bottle is quite effective.

You do have to wonder about the state of the crankshaft sludge traps though.
Noooo! Don't say that, I've just spent 24 hours resisting that thought! Actually, since the engine hasn't been run for so many years, I'm hoping the sludge never got as far as the sludge trap. The oil had actually settled into two layers, the top layer looking quite clear and pleasant, unlike the bottom layer!

Now have a look at this:

Image

The cover plate from the relief valve is bent, because of this:

Image

I was running out of time when I discovered this, so I haven't investigated fully. Am I right in assuming that the sleeve/guide should end up about flush with the top of its housing?
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Re: Another project!

Post by EVguru »

It's normal for the sleeve to stand proud and the plate to be bent.
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

EVguru wrote:It's normal for the sleeve to stand proud and the plate to be bent.
Thanks Paul, I'm reassured. A bit of a messy detail though, not really up to Morini engineering standards! On my K2 that sleeve was pretty well flush with the top of the housing, though the 350 is slightly different to the 500. I don't really like the bent plate and I don't like the way the two fixing bolts get splayed outwards slightly. Hmm, I might do something about that.

I had a quick poke about in the sump sludge with a finger and I think it is just soft sludge which will wash out easily. If I get a chance later today, I'll have a go with the air/paraffin gun (after spreading plastic sheeting everywhere!). I also hope to get the primary case and clutch cover painted today. A run up to NLM later in the week for starter brushes and a few other odds and sods. Oh yes, I've decided on service kits for all the brakes, master and slave cylinders. If I don't do that I know what will inevitably happen a soon as I start to ride the bike. The fluid's got to be changed anyway.
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Re: Another project!

Post by EVguru »

You might want to search through the discussions on mastercylinder bore size. I've always found the 19mm and twin discs to be rather wooden.
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

EVguru wrote:You might want to search through the discussions on mastercylinder bore size. I've always found the 19mm and twin discs to be rather wooden.
Excuse my ignorance Paul, is the master cylinder bore marked on there somewhere? Or is there some easy way to tell before I dismantle it? On the 350 K2, once the pads had bedded in, which took a while, I was quite impressed with the brakes - pretty good bite and fairly good "feel". Certainly way better than the Lockheeds I'm more used to!

When you say they are a bit wooden, are you suggesting a change to a different master cylinder? If so, now's the time to do it! The front master cylinder is different to the one on the K2 - visually, anyway. Oh just noticed you said "discussions" - I'll have a look there.

I got the primary side cover cleaned up and painted this morning and I'm pleased with it. I've decided to name my previous owner "the Hylomar Kid" - he's put it everywhere, including using it to stick the clutch cover on - I had a heck of a job getting it off.

I've filled the air/paraffin gun with paraffin and now just plucking up the courage to make a serious mess!
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2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
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Re: Another project!

Post by penman »

The air & paraffin gun was definitely the right thing to do. I had two worries, that it would leave dislodged lumps of sludge in inaccessible corners of the sump and that it may leave pools of dirty paraffin in various places. After I'd done blasting it with air & paraffin, I let it drip for a few minutes and then had a good look around with the bore scope - you can pretty well see everywhere with a bit of careful bending and probing. It has come up amazingly clean. I suppose the paraffin droplets are bouncing around all over the place and it has really cleaned it up, not a trace of sludge to be seen. Also, that sump really drains well - no pools left anywhere. So, I'm well pleased with that result.
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
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