501 starting problems

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MickeyMoto
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501 starting problems

Post by MickeyMoto »

Hi,

My 501 (Kokusan) will not start. I have a spark and fuel and new plugs. The engine kicks back. I have set the ignition as per the manual and also retarded it. Any clues, please. I presume it uses a wasted spark? No electric starter....

Thank you.

Mike.
'It must be a .....'
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Joined: 12 Sep 2010 12:25

Re: 501 starting problems

Post by 'It must be a .....' »

Hi Mike, the Kokusan ignition system is designed for electric starting and others have highlighted this problem with the engine kicking back at kick start speeds.
There might be a solution? as an engine kicking back is also not good for an electric start clutch.
I stuck with the Ducati Electronica ignition/alternator when I changed to a 501 engine, partly to avoid a rewire as I intend to put the original engine back in the bike once sorted.
Good luck, regards Ian
norbert
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by norbert »

That´s interisting Ian, didn´t know that the Kokusan ignicion is a problem with kickstarting (never used a Kokusan and neither an electric starter :wink: )
I`m also still with the Ducati ignicion. Generally to start a 501 kicking is not that easy as a 350. I allways first give it a turn around without intention to start it, then looking for compression an at last give it a firm decisive kick, mostly it works well like that.

Mike the 501 motors are overestimated, they are a shit! But to help you out of the mess I would offer you a change for a god running 350, how about that? :lol:

good luck and a happy new year!
norbert
MickeyMoto
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by MickeyMoto »

Thanks for the replies.

I'll reset the ignition to the book static settings. The bike is on a stand and I am having trouble giving it a proper kick. I'll get it down and apply a firm prod with my motorcycle boot on!

Norbert, the reason I have a 501 is because the engines are that awful. I could not cope with a 350 engine, it would be too good.
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Ming
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Location: Central France

Re: 501 starting problems

Post by Ming »

I have read somewhere that for kick-starting a 501 there is a mod which involves shortening the timing 'block' on the circumference of the rotor. I can't remember the details though. :oops:
pedro
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Joined: 04 Nov 2010 21:14

Re: 501 starting problems

Post by pedro »

I am lucky enough to have two 350's fitted with the awful 501 engine, one is fitted with Kokusan ignition and is easy to start, the other has Ducati ignition and requires a specific technique, basically the engine must be spun very quickly in order to start it, for me this involves standing behind the kickstart and holding the grab handle and giving it a very sharp jab. The Kokusan bike is relatively easy, I can stand alongside holding the throttle and give it a jab. Both were an acquired knack and nowhere near as easy as a 350. Once going however, I love em both.
EVguru
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by EVguru »

A few years ago I collected a 501 engined Strada from NLM that had been rebuilt following a crash that seriously injured its rider. It was to be displayed on the club stand at Stafford before being delivered home.

It was kicking back so badly that I gave up trying to start it before I received an injury. It had to be pushed into the showground and then up the ramp onto the balcony.

It wasn't until the carbs were dropped off to me for ultrasonic cleaning that easy starting was restored.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
norbert
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Location: Lübeck/Germany

Re: 501 starting problems

Post by norbert »

I use to kick with the left foot standing (like sitting)above the bike. Only if it resists I stand behind the kicker an kick it also with the left. My foot passes quite near to the resetet footrest, but when I was young playing soccer I also prefered the left one :lol:
I think every motor has its own secret. I found out that mine does insist in the slow kick before. When the motor stops at a traffic light beeing not very warm, I sometimes try without giving ist first that slow kick, and the chance that it won´t start is about 80%.

By the way, you should not kick a 501 on the side stand, that will do harm to your frame where the side stand is fixed.

norbert
MickeyMoto
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by MickeyMoto »

Hi,

As Pedro has no problems and my engine last run 10 months ago I think the carbs probably need a clean.

Thanks again for the help.

Norbert, take up cricket, much better.

Mike
pedro
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Joined: 04 Nov 2010 21:14

Re: 501 starting problems

Post by pedro »

Mike,
My Kokusan bike is the one that Paul (Evguru) is talking about kicking back until the carbs were clean, I can confirm that it is an easy starter (for a 501) I struggled with starting until I realized that the key is to spin the engine quickly, so a short sharp jab. It very rarely kicks back now, and when it does, it is not in the British big single league, my youth spent with Velo Thruxtons and Goldies mean that I am off the pedal as soon as it is down.
MickeyMoto
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by MickeyMoto »

So,

Pulled the bike from the lift. Fuel tank on, seat on, looking nice.

Motorcycle boots on...

Chokes up, ignition on... kick, kick, kick... hmmm. One choke down... kick, kick, kick

all chokes off... kick, kick, kick

throttle slightly open.. kick, kick, kick

leave

repeat a few times

eventually both chokes, a quarter throttle and it starts.... probably year old fuel does not help.

on the home straight at last - maybe - however the kickstart return spring has decide to part company...... bugger.

Time for tea and a rest. Pulled a muscle in my side, my right leg is aching... but got a smile on my face as wide as Joan Collins' legs....
-------------------------------------------------------

Mike.
MickeyMoto
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by MickeyMoto »

So, more fettling. Nearly ready for an MoT. Started 2nd kick today. Need some fresh fuel.
3potjohn
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by 3potjohn »

One year old fuel-you wouldn't put 1 year old milk in your tea .Still glad it ran.My old C15 used to break it's return spring for a passtime.
MickeyMoto
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by MickeyMoto »

So it is a good starter from cold. No kicking back etc. However it does have the 'surge' problem and also the rev to 2,500 rpm problem.

It happens when just off idle and a bit of gas helps, but is annoying as it is around town riding that is affected. Sorry to say this but it feels like a Ducrapi! I know the answer is to grind 10mm off the left hand side of the triggers on the flywheel, but not confident. Anybody done this, please, or know someone who is able to do it? I'd rather pay a professional (or an amateur who knows what they are doing).

It is a shame, as it pulls like a train from very few revs and cruises easily at 110 klicks at 4,500 rpm.

Mike.
morini_tom
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Re: 501 starting problems

Post by morini_tom »

Mike,

I did the kokusan trigger mod on my 501 dart and it transformed it.

Obviously never had starting related issues with the electric start but certainly the idle ignition needed retarding and that will equally apply at the kickstart speed.

I need to modify another rotor as I sold my modified one to Les skinner when his threw a magnet and my motor was in bits.

If you can bring yours to the committee meeting on Sunday I'll take it away and do yours at the same time.

Tom
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