Starter clutch slipping

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harrymuffin
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by harrymuffin »

PS. if you paid £80 you were ripped off as relining by Villiers only costs about £18/pair.
Greybeard
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by Greybeard »

Thanks HM. Ill let NLM know then :? Though I was talking about a complete set of new shoes/springs as opposed to a reline which I know wouldve cost much less. As it was, I didnt want to start posting bits all over the place. As i have the original shoes Ill be able to get them relined should I wish at some point.
Choosing not to go down the cheaper or a different route doesnt necessarily mean that I was ripped off. If I couldve bought a complete new set of 3 genuine shoes for 20 quid, then you may have a point :wink:

Steve
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by EVguru »

If you buy new Sureflex starter shoes, you'll get the later style laminated steel type with the reinforcing web.

The extra weight means they're thrown out against the drum harder.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Greybeard
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by Greybeard »

It certainly sounds very healthy, Paul. It spins the mill like a good un :D
I didnt need to replace the worm gear either - though I did buy one to hang on to as a 'just in case'. :wink:

Steve
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Daddy Dom
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by Daddy Dom »

Paul, do you mean these?
Cheers,
Dom
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_inf ... rettyPhoto
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by EVguru »

Daddy Dom wrote:Paul, do you mean these?
Cheers,
Dom
https://www.stein-dinse.biz/product_inf ... rettyPhoto
Those are the ones.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
penman
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Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by penman »

I hadn’t noticed that this thread had gone on so far. My starter clutch seems to have settled down again for no obvious reason, so at the moment I am ignoring it! I used the Morini forthe Moto Piston Rally again this year and although it did slip briefly a few times, it never failed to start the bike, so I’ve learned to live with it. I have made a note of the link to those heavier starter shoes recommended by Paul though!

As a brief off-topic comment, the Morini 500 has to be just about the ideal bike for the Piston rally - such a lot of fun!
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
penman
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Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by penman »

Morning everyone and an apology for re-raising the issue of a slipping starter clutch.

Mine seemed to be a lot better after cleaning and de-glazing the starter shoe linings, but it has got worse and worse again to the point that I usually have to kick-start the bike. I have checked and cleaned everything numerous times and it is usually a little bit better, but soon goes back to slipping. I skimmed the commutator a year or so ago and fitted new brushes - I just checked that and all is well in there. There is a bit of oil weeping from the starter gearbox, but it's not major and hasn't reached anywhere inside the motor. All the wiring, the starter relay and the battery are in good shape and it is maintaining good voltage at the starter terminal when cranking. Hmm, when I say "cranking" I mean rattling, slipping and making awful graunching noises!

In one of the posts above (from last year) someone mentioned heavier starter clutch shoes from Stein Dinse and posted a link. I followed that at the time and they were listed with a picture. That link still works, but it doesn't take you to starter shoes, just to a page of new products. Does anyone know of another source of those shoes? By the way I have sent an email to Stein Dinse asking if they still stock them, but I suspect they don't.
Regards to all,
Joe.
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
penman
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Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by penman »

A quick update - Stein Dinse tell me that this part is no longer available. If anyone knows of another source, do let me know!

Joe
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
harrymuffin
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Joined: 07 Apr 2014 16:06
Location: west midlands

Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by harrymuffin »

If you have the lighter early ones and cannot get any of the heavier later ones, you can optimise the centrifugal force of the light ones by inserting steel dowls, after driling suitable holes, at the foot end. I did this on a couple of sets, one set fitted to a K2 and that cured occaisional slipping on that bike and then did the same on a 500 with the same success.
penman
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by penman »

Thanks harrymuffin. Just to check that I've understood you, do you mean a bit of steel dowel sticking out of the tip of the shoe, sort of parallel to the spring? I think there is enough space there and I guess it would increase the weight of the shoe. I don't suppose you've a photo of one you've done?

I originally thought that the plate on the side of the shoe was to add stiffness rather than weight, but I can see that extra weight would help as well. Here is the photo I was just sent by Stein Dinse:

Image

When fitted, the plate would be on top of the shoes, they are shown upside down here. I guess it wouldn't be difficult to make some plates and fit them to the shoes. I need to give this some thought, but I need to do something, it's a pain in the neck at the moment!
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
rossguzzi
Posts: 433
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by rossguzzi »

Very interesting read.
I have been keen to get a starter on my Camel. I've been in contact with 2 members here regarding the possibly purchase, but have not herd back. Would you guys recommend fitting one? I would only be interested in getting a very good condition one.
What do you think ?
penman
Posts: 325
Joined: 08 Mar 2016 09:20
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Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by penman »

rossguzzi wrote:Very interesting read.
I have been keen to get a starter on my Camel. I've been in contact with 2 members here regarding the possibly purchase, but have not herd back. Would you guys recommend fitting one? I would only be interested in getting a very good condition one.
What do you think ?
I have always been happy with kick-start on British bikes, however I find the Morini 500 difficult to start by kick-start. I find the L/H kick start a bit awkward to use and I find it needs a very strong kick to get it going. By contrast, it's very easy to start on the button - or at least it was until all this starter clutch malarky started up! That doesn't really answer your question, but I for one find the electric start an advantage on this bike. Keep an eye on those German bike dismantler websites such as MTH - https://motorradteilehannover.de - with a bit of luck you might get a complete R/H cover assembly with the starter motor, clutch, etc. Remember you also need the type of flywheel with the starter "drum" attached and a starter relay, so all in all this isn't going to be a cheap upgrade! Good luck!
1984 Moto Guzzi V65
1969 Honda CB450
1975 Triumph T160 Trident
2019 BMW F750GS Sport
1978 Morini 500
EVguru
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Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by EVguru »

The shoes are still in production by Surflex.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
harrymuffin
Posts: 292
Joined: 07 Apr 2014 16:06
Location: west midlands

Re: Starter clutch slipping

Post by harrymuffin »

Sorry for delay in replying to your query. I regret that I sold the K2 some time ago, preferring the the bigger capacity bikes. I drilled holes as you say, near to the spring locations, the hole size was just under the plug I inserted to produce an interfrence fit and once fitted is flush. I think I used plugs made from 13mm high tensile bolts which seemed to be slightly densor than mild steel but I used what I had at the time as an experiment.You could get two plugs in one this size and one smaller to increase the centrifugal force. I did this originally on the K2 as it kept slipping, but I would recommed having the shoes relined with a soft friction material and thickness so they won't go in initially, but profile them down such that when expanded the whole shoe is in contact with the drum. Ferodo used to 'fit' brake shoes to drums by holding the brake back plate and shoes in a lathe and turn the shoes - expanded - to the diameter of the drum. I have thought about doing this to the Morini starter shoes, but by careful filing and fitting can get the shoes to fit. On the 500's I did the same but the 507 I have not had to resort to this mod, but I did 'fit' the shoes. On this bike the compression is 13:1 and if anything the shoes do bite such that the engine does chug in overcomming compression, but she does start instantly or perhaps after a couple of turns even when cold and not started for a couple of months. I managed to set up all the starters such that I removed the kick starts and if there was a problem which sometimes did happen (fuse etc) it was always quicker to bump the bike rather than hold traffic up. The other thing I may mention, if you still have the original solenoid then replace it with one from a big Jap bike, the contacts stiffle the current to the motor and can weld themselves together, this happenrd once to me where I had the starter whizzing round with the engine running as well, I think the engine was turning the starter! Also make sure the internals at the electric end are clean. The brushes as supplied by NLM were too short and tend to burn, I always when reconditioning bought brushes from an elecrical auto dealer longer than the originals but would have to reduce the section to fit into the brass housings. I had no end of people complaining how crap the starters were or did not work because of brush/commutatoroil seal gone and carbon/oil encapsultion of everthing. All the shoes I have fiddled with do not look like your photos, so mine must be the early ones that seem to be made from Mazak although I do have some laminated ones. Hope this is helpfull
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