350/501 ignition

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pedro
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Joined: 04 Nov 2010 21:14

350/501 ignition

Post by pedro »

I'm lucky enough to have a 501 engined 350, it has the Ducati alternator and an NLM ignition setup, it has always been a pig to start, even when Alex first set up the ignition, now it's getting worse, As I say, the ignition was fitted and set up by NLM and so I don't have any setup notes, has anyone a copy that I could see?
I have toyed with going back to the original setup, presumably black pick up and grey transducers, do you think that would bring about an improvement?
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72degrees
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by 72degrees »

Presumably it also has an NLM 'module' and conventional coils?

If so, you can put a black or red pickup on if you retain those.

I tried an NLM pickup and didn't get on with it, though starting wasn't a big issue one I got the air gaps small enough, but it did need a *fast* kick. Not much to set up except getting the air gaps between sensors and 'rotor' as small as possible and positioning the independent sensors by strobing.

Whatever the pickup and transducers or coils used the ignition winding on the stator needs to be good as well as flywheel magnetism. I'de be inclined to check those first.
norbert
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by norbert »

Hi Pedro,

I don´t know the NLM system. I drive my two 501 with black pickups and grey nuckle boxes without starting problems. Maybe you can find some BP7EVX plugs (platin not iridium), they help starting (not produced anymore :? ). And as 72degrees said, have a look at the ignition coil of the stator. My experience is that starting problems become serious with less than 180 ohmios. The best flywheels are the ones from the latest models with Ducati ignition (for example the X3 enduros). These have all the marks for PMS1, PMS2 and ANT1, ANT2 for 350 and 500 :wink: I believe to remember that their nunmer (inside) ends with ...8

good luck
norbert
pedro
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Joined: 04 Nov 2010 21:14

Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by pedro »

Thanks for the replies, Norbert I do have BP7EVX plugs in her, when I bought the bike some 9 years ago I got it at a good price because of the starting problems, so my first stop was NLM to get it sorted, Alex did all the usual checks and put NLM ignitition on it (replacing an earlier NLM ignition) it was still a pig to start and has been ever since, I have developed a technique to start it involving using a band to hold the throttle slightly open, going to the back of the bike, holding the grab handle and giving an explosive kick pushing down on my knee with my spare hand, basically spinning the engine extremely quickly, I have started other 501 engines without having to resort to this, and it is getting worse. What I want to know is, would I be better off with an original setup if I could find the parts. I appreciate the comments about the stator and flywheel, they were checked by Alex and were good, the bike was still a pig to start, they could well have gone downhill in the meantime.
harrymuffin
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by harrymuffin »

The throttle should be shut (according to Dellorto) when trying to start, especially if cold and you have the choke jets open(auxilary carb). Check the jets for the O ring at the bottom and the piston that closes off the jet has not lost the rubber inserts to shut it off and also the holes in the tube wall are not blocked. It was a problem I had on a K2 and swore blind it was ignition till I went back to basics.
norbert
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by norbert »

Hi Pedro,

I think that nearly every motor has its own caracter and sometimes we have to find out the special wishes of each one.

The 501 in Rocinante for example (with the the strange setting of the 28 Dellortos you know, 268T and 50 slides) requieres two chokes even when the temperature ist about 15-20°C. The engine in Dulcinea needs only one choke.
I allways do the same: first one soft kickdown without intention of starting, then looking for the point of comresion after the long way without compresion (I guess it´s the compresion of teh rear, not sure) an then a decisive kick, opening the gas a bit in that moment. Normaly it starts with the first kick. If the third did not work, I take the helmet of and put it on the main stand :roll: Normaly I start the motor with the left leg standing above the bike with helmet and gloves on to get away quick before the neighbours begin to tear plant pots from their balconies :lol:
If I´m in a hurry or stessed because the motor stopped at a red traffic light or things like that and try to kick it on without that ceremony of a slow kick before (even with a warm motor) normaly it doesn´t work. I know that before. So after a couple of years I accepted that that´s the way this motor likes to be started.
pedro
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by pedro »

Norbert, you would not be starting this one with your left leg I promise you, it has to be on the stand or no chance, Harry the carbs have been in bits more times than I can remember, most things replaced, the band is only used when the engine is warm, not when the chokes are used.
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72degrees
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by 72degrees »

Harrymuffin's advice is very pertinent but needing a very fast kick suggests a 'poor' spark to me rather than a carburation issue. I'm surprised NLM let you have it back from the workshop while still a pig to start. The ignition winding and flywheel magnetism might very well have deteriorated even more.

The NLM modules seem to either work perfectly or fail on one cylinder in my experience (which is limited to just three examples on two machines to be fair). They are designed to run with any pickup including the NLM type and so if Nuovoray are still supplying black type pickups you could try one of those. "Known good" OEM red type II ones are hard to come by now. NLM changed the specification for the HT coils to be used with the module, from small 2 connection 'scooter' type units to larger XV250 type earthed direct to the frame. My two machines seem equally happy with either type whether using an early one cable group module or the most recent two cable group version- sometimes substitution testing is the only way to diagnose ignition problems but I know that's not a lot of help if you only have one bike!

Having said that, I've never had a 500, so my experience is limited to 350s (but including engines in a fairly high state of tune).

As to reverting to the original transducer system, that might be possible if you can find any for a 500 but my experience is that an NLM module but used with an OEM type II red pickup works better than transducers.

New 500 transducers aren't listed in:
http://www.nuovaray.it/wp-content/uploa ... 0317-1.pdf
julianharty
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by julianharty »

I've found low-tech spark testers extremely useful when diagnosing problems on my bikes. Here's one of many sellers on eBay (you can take your pick between the many depending on how soon you want them, etc) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Spark-Plug-T ... SwQFhca6Da I'd recommend you buy 2 of them, one per cylinder. They include a removable tip (like the ones we got on NGK sparkplugs). I've bought 4 of these from various sources so far, they're certainly less than £6 when I've bought them (from memory I bought the first from a UK supplier and the extras from China since I wasn't in a hurry for those). I use them on my VFR400's too (4 cylinders and 4 good sparks).

Here's my suggestion for whoever wants to try these - first remove both your sparkplugs - that way your bike turns over more easily - especially useful when using the kickstart to run the testing.

Clip the clip (yes) to a cylinder head fin or another good 'earth' point on your bike. fit the other end in your spark plug cap. Do likewise for the second cylinder. Do your best to make the central area with the spark visible while you're kickstarting the engine. The central point is threaded so you can adjust it to measure the spark's length and by association the strength. I get good sparks (to the E mark as a minimum on the central area). I'd expect you to see clear sparks at roughly the same length of gap in each of the units each time you kickstart the engine. I can see the spark easily on my Morinis in winter daylight. I've not tried in full sunlight.

Of course if you've got someone else to help the process may be easier.

Do ask me if there's anything else I can do to help clarify how I use these tools.

By the way, they're small enough to have a set with you on rides, in case you need to diagnose intermittent problems on your longer voyages...

Oh, and neither of my roadworthy morinis have standard, traditional ignition so I can't compare my sparks directly to say what you could expect. My 501 engined 3 1/2 has the Kokusan system, and my 350 has the Sachs system, fitted before I got the bike.
pedro
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Joined: 04 Nov 2010 21:14

Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by pedro »

Just an update on my 501/350 starting issues, to start at the beginning, I bought the bike (my first Morini, but not the last) some 9 years ago, I got it at a good price because the vendor couldn't start it, my first port of call was NLM who removed an early NLM setup and fitted their latest, Alex pronounced it fixed, however, the starting was still hit and miss so back it went, I was told the 501 was always hard to start and sent on my way. Now when the bike went, it was a real hoot to ride and I loved it so I put up with it being a pig to start, (the Velo Thruxton I had at the time was a breeze in comparison) Time went by and I found that I was using it less and less because it was such an unreliable starter, advancing years were not helping me either, it needed a very fast spin to stand a chance. I decided that I would like to take it to Cadwell and Mallory 1000 bikes again this year so I played around some more until I decided to hand it over to Benjy Straw, Benjy went over the wiring and improved some areas and VERY carefully set up the pickup (the manufacture of which is not very good) it was better but still not good enough for my 70 year old leg to cope with so I got Benjy to fit an original black pickup and grey transducers. The result is AMAZING it's now a first kick starter most of the time and certainly no harder to start than my 350. I just wish that I had tried it years ago because it took the edge off what is a lovely bike, performance seems unaltered. Thanks for all your help.
julianharty
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by julianharty »

Pedro,
Thank you so much for the update and the good news. My 501 can be a bugger to start and sometimes kicks back forcefully, although it's generally quite well behaved.

BTW: I've yet to try the modifications Soren recommends for the Kokusan ignition https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho64Yn_jBSw I'd need to be brave and well prepared to do so given the cost and scarcity of the Kokusan rotor!

Julian
norbert
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by norbert »

Enhorabuena Pedro!

These grey transducers are original from Ducati Elettronica? En what number do end their number ...82 (350) or ...84 (500/501) ? Or dou you have the flat ones without nuckle ...71 (350) or ....74 (500/501) ?
pedro
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by pedro »

Norbert, it's late now so I'm not going to go outside now to check and tomorrow morning I am off to Mallory Park to parade my 400cc Morini racebike, so I won't get a chance to look until next week, but they do have the knuckle and they are Ducati from an Excalibur 501.
Julian, this one is Ducati ignition, so not really comparable, my other 501/350 is Kokusan and starting is not a problem (usually) not sure if it has had the mod, but it rarely kicks back, I'm used to bikes kicking back after years of British singles so would barely notice.
harrymuffin
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by harrymuffin »

If Ducati ignition is good enough to be original fit on Rotax engined micro light engines it must be good enough for our Morinis. I have 350 transducers fitted to my 507 engined 350 with a starter motor and it starts instantly on the push of the button. A bit slugish when cold sometimes, but give me the starter motor any day to the kick start. Should the battery be low it will start first prod, but I prefer to bump start it. If you are a geriatric like me, then fit a starter motor and throw the kick start leaver away, saves all that weight as well.
norbert
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Location: Lübeck/Germany

Re: 350/501 ignition

Post by norbert »

Hi Pedro,
if they are from a 501 Excalibur their nunber will end with ...84. I´ve tried the ...84 and ...82 boxes on Dulcinea with a 501 motor and starting is no problem with either of them using a black pickup.
Harry you are right. When we begin to have problems with our legs it´s time to look for an electric starter. I´ve already stored a restored one :wink: , hope not to need it :wink: soon :roll: Allthough the weight of a kicker compared to the elevtric starter :roll: :lol:

Next week winter will leave us again, so nicer weather will come back soon :D
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