350/501 ignition

Maestro, SEI-V

Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby harrymuffin » 12 Apr 2019 18:02

Norbert, I was wondering if you would understand the English sarcasm in the weight of the kickstart lever. Seriously, unless you are handle bar to handle bar going past the Highlander, then the convenience out weighs the extra weight of the starter and if your style is simple fast cross country open bend scracthing (cruising), then it makes little difference. I was one of the many when the jap crap started coming over in the middle sixties and joined in the ridicule of 'softy' starter motors, but on hindsight I can now see the benefits. I had a lot of Velocettes then, people kept giving them to me which after passsing them on, allowed me to go racing which, included an unoffiical works assisted Production Thruxton -belonged to a friend of mine, which then, all production class bikes had to be kick started when the flag went down. If you knew how,then she always started first kick, unlike the Triumphs where the riders would be pumping away with their right legs and usually in the first three to the hairpin at Cadwell. That was the reason I bought a Morini(s), they are how I considered Veloce would be like if they had not packed up, they have all the charisma and qualities plus the vices (for some) of continually being required to be be tinkered with unlike the jap crap which are disposable.
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby rossguzzi » 14 Apr 2019 11:57

So what would the cost (aprox) be to turn a kick start Camel into a leccy leg ??

It`s just in case I get to the stage of needing it in the future.

Im guessing flywheel/generator wiring, rectifier, side cover and all manner of gears and gismo`s.

Big $$ `s my guess.
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby julianharty » 14 Apr 2019 14:16

@rossguzzi,
As so often happens, the answer is 'it depends...' in terms of the costs. It also depends on your patience and circumstances amongst other factors. For instance, I've ended up buying the side casing with a starter clutch (but no starter motor) for perhaps 30 Euros, albeit I bought it in the USA on ebay.com I actually wanted the narrower casing but this was inexpensive enough to buy regardless. I also ended up similarly buying a rotor and stator for an electric start even though I was looking for the older narrower ones - it was inexpensive and would do for my purposes (which is to enable me to build up an incomplete 350 engine I'd bought from Sicily on eBay.it) and then arranged parcelmonkey.co.uk to collect it from there and bring it to the UK.

In the older days of Morini ownership many people seemed to want to junk / remove their electric start and associated paraphernalia and some may still have the old parts in storage so if you ask on the Wanted section of this forum you might just be lucky.

Another option if you've the space available in front of your engine and can find the parts is to obtain the later electric starter mechanism that was fitted to the later custom Morinis and I believe some other models. This involves replacing your clutch casing, etc. Someone in the club kindly donated most of these parts to me for one of my projects to fit an electric starter on my 501 - I don't have space in the frame though so I need to either modify the frame downtubes or do something clever with the location, or type, of starter motor. I've plans afoot but not resolved everything I need to do to get the motor fitted and working.

Ciao

Julian
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby harrymuffin » 15 Apr 2019 13:57

Assuming you have the normal Ducati electrics the parts required would be a flywheel with a drum attached, people ditching the starter motor often just removed the motor and the shoes and continued to use the deep cover, so would retain the drum attached to the flywheel, an electric starter solenoid prefrably one from a big Kawasaki which I have bought for less than a fiver new on ebay and a push button switch which usaually comes with the later throttle assembly. All the other electrics are as standard but you could do with a 20Ahr battery as listed for the 500's. If you have the Harglo blue instruction book there is a section on the starter motor. If however your flywheel has the non electric starter flywheel then you would need to find someone who may swap with you.
1) Deep right hand cover with motor and centrifugal shoe assembly - usually comes complete, I have acquired a couple over the years.
2) Drum flywheel.
3) Solenoid starter switch.
4) Push button on the right handle bar.
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby Steve Brown » 15 Apr 2019 14:43

I did this with my Camel. As mentioned above the only easy option is the side mounted original starter motor set up, as the later type really needs more space in the front engine mount area to accommodate the starter motor.
Another point not mentioned yet is that you will need to reposition the right footrest to clear the larger flywheel cover, and then rework the rear brake cable and pedal assembly. On mine I wanted the brake on the 'proper' left side so it is then easy to use a standard right footrest and gear lever/linkage from the 500W tourer models. The extended cable threads neatly through the frame to the left mounted brake lever which conveniently uses standard attachment points of the Camel gear parts. I welded a cable outer fixing to the frame but you could have a bolted up one I suppose.
As for the battery, Morini used the great big battery as original but I decided to risk a Lithium ion modern thing roughly a third of the size, despite warnings it wouldn't stand up to prolonged use. So far so good, but I confess my mileage with it is still low. That makes it possible to hide it inside the frame somewhere. I think the weight saving of this battery goes some way to compensating the weight gain of the starter motor and associated gubbins.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby rossguzzi » 16 Apr 2019 00:48

Interesting. I've not had any experience with the electric starts. Are the weak and troublesome as I've herd ? Or with careful maintenance they are good. Sorry for the hijack.
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby Ming » 16 Apr 2019 07:21

To try to help with both questions.
It's possible to build your own transducers if you are handy with a soldering iron, the components aren't expensive, either - see the Dutch Club's site for details.
I don't know how hard a 500 is to kick over, but I used to struggle with a 350 Kanguro, mainly due to the height of the pedal. I have no problem with my 350 Strada or K2 Sport.
I bought the K2 as it has electric start, with a view to ease of use on ageing knees, though I find that I can still start the Strada easily enough if I follow the procedure it prefers. My understanding is that the original system is designed to prevent kick-back, but that you need a well set up system with a good output from the exciter coil. The K2 starts easily on the button, but it's a clattery process. It also starts easily enough on the kick. I tend to start from cold by kick, then use electric after. I have a good new battery, too (Motobatt).
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby harrymuffin » 16 Apr 2019 10:40

I thought I sent you the 'kit' to make a couple of transducers based on the Dutch site Ming using printed circuit boards. Did you not glue the thyristers and other bits on or did Flash Gorden intercept them before they got to you?
Regarding starter motors, because they were new fangled devices they were neglected with oil draining into the electrical bit from the worn drive mixing with the carbon dust and seizing solid. Having had to 'fix' quite a lot of starters for people, the main most prolific problem is as standard solenoid restricting current flow, hence a bigger jap one, and worn starter carbon brushes again restricting curent flow - buy from an auto electrical stockist for a few pennys and reuce to fit rather than what NLM were flogging them for over £12 when enquired 15 years ago and worn friction material on the centrifugal shoes with the starter whizzing round but turning the crankshaft slowly. They were expectd to last forever but I have not had any problem with starting and removed the kick starts to save weight, even the 507 with 12.1 compression starts on the button when cold. Admitably, because they were not direct and perhaps people thought they were they wore out and got a bad reputation and were removed and could be picked up for a song once uon a time.
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Re: 350/501 ignition

Postby Ming » 16 Apr 2019 19:28

Hi Harry, yes I have the pcbs you kindly sent - it's just another job to get round to, added to which I don't need them yet. The K2s starter is no trouble and as the bike has 50k km on it I presume it has been reliable. I have serviced it anyway. It's just an inherently noisy arrangement with the friction shoes being flung out to contact the drum.
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