Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Camel, Sahara, Kanguro, Coguaro

Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 06 Jun 2017 07:54

I recently bought an X3 Kanguro, and it worked for a week or so. Then it simply stopped running when I flipped the choke off (on the rear, right carb) when it was warming up. I wouldn't start again. First I thought it might be out of fuel as I'd run it nearly dry. However more fuel didn't help. When I eventually took the plugs out to see if it has a spark, neither cylinder has a spark.

Before I go into details, please can anyone help me understand what the wiring of an X3 should be e.g. is it pure 12V electrics? Mine has grey transducers with a bulge, presumably for an uprated coil (that look like the NRC-30 here http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/tech.html#table).

I've followed links here and on Google but can't find the relevant wiring diagram. The closest I've found are:

Mine's had some modifications to the wiring by the previous owner who replaced the instruments with a modern combined unit made by Vapor. They moved the ignition switch to the right of the Vapor unit. The headlight and indicators have also been replaced with a smaller custom unit that includes the indicators. I discovered there was some damage in the 9-way connector where the socket for the high-beam connection is partly missing, but the rest of the wiring doesn't have obvious problems. The bike has modern switch gear (black with orange text labelling the switches) and a 4-pole connector from the RH switch gear that contains the kill switch and the starter button.

There are some seemingly odd connectors e.g. one that has 4 violet (or light purple) wires in series to connect all 4 poles. I've found 3 fuses (all inline on wires) so far, a relay, a diode on the green wire to the transducers (it's used in series i.e. the connection goes through the diode). I'm prepared to slowly make sense of the wiring however I'm hoping some of you will help me find the problem(s) with the starting and also make sense of the wiring sooner than if I have to do it all solo.

Oh and I've found the trouble-shooting videos that Søren Hansen and Paul Compton have posted a great help, however I still need to translate how to apply these to the X3 and it's later wiring and transducers.
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby MickeyMoto » 06 Jun 2017 08:50

Hi Julian,

The X3 (large tank) was purely 12 volt. The ignition should be the same as any other Ducati Eletronica bike. Check the magneto coil (white wire?) and check no earth on wire etc. Maybe the kill switch needs checking? Open circuit to start closed circuit to stop?

Mike.
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 06 Jun 2017 15:44

Mike thank you for the info.

Thanks also to Chris of NLM for his suggestions (which included checking the timing belt was still in one piece in case the pickups weren't being triggered when the engine turned - a useful tip of something that might seem obvious to others...).

Here's what I've got to so far.
    * The bike has custom wiring (blue replacing the green wire from the stator and bright orange that's connected to the white wires for the transducers). This isn't the only change, but a particularly interesting / quirky one in terms of testing.
    * The ignition coil in the stator reads around 278 Ohms, and generates around 78V AC when the engine's turned over by the electric start (with a well charged mammoth battery).
    * If I disconnect the LH (front) transducer from the pairs of wires (the green and the white) then I get a weak spark on the rear brand-new plug.
    * It's hard to tell if I get a spark on either cylinder with both transducers connected. What I do notice is the resistance reduces to around 24 Ohms with both transducers connected, 278 Ohms with only the RH connected. (I didn't end up checking what it read with only the LH connected).

The green spade connector to the RH transducer is missing part of the connector. The connections had some powder, or dirt, that came off when I disconnected the wires from the LH transducer. The battery strap has perished.

Based on what I found I decided it'd do no harm to clean up the connections, the transducers, and the earthing, as a basic electrical hygiene.

I've now removed the battery and the earthing screw on the LH of the headstock. This had around 12 connections run to it! far more than I'd expected. I've removed the transducers and cleaned them externally and checked the condition of the earth wires (that come out of the transducers) and the 4 spade connectors in each. All seems OK so far. I've started tracing the various wires and connections. Tomorrow I hope to map out most of the wiring on paper. I've been videoing what I've seen and taken various photos.

My aim is to get the wiring and electrics fit to cope well with many more years of riding. I've ordered the 9-way housing and pins, and some new wire in various colours (1 sq. mm 18 AWG) to enable me to tidy up bits and pieces as I go. I already have some heatshrink, etc. Here's hoping I manage to find the gremlins. I'll check Mike's suggestions too. Chris had suggested disconnecting the green wire from the ignition switch but that didn't seem practical based on the wiring on the bike. And anyway, now I've seen a spark on the rear cylinder I can't blame the kill switch shorting the connection (entirely at least).

Thanks for your help so far. I'll post updates as they may help others in future with similar issues.
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 06 Jun 2017 15:44

Mike thank you for the info.

Thanks also to Chris of NLM for his suggestions (which included checking the timing belt was still in one piece in case the pickups weren't being triggered when the engine turned - a useful tip of something that might seem obvious to others...).

Here's what I've got to so far.
    * The bike has custom wiring (blue replacing the green wire from the stator and bright orange that's connected to the white wires for the transducers). This isn't the only change, but a particularly interesting / quirky one in terms of testing.
    * The ignition coil in the stator reads around 278 Ohms, and generates around 78V AC when the engine's turned over by the electric start (with a well charged mammoth battery).
    * If I disconnect the LH (front) transducer from the pairs of wires (the green and the white) then I get a weak spark on the rear brand-new plug.
    * It's hard to tell if I get a spark on either cylinder with both transducers connected. What I do notice is the resistance reduces to around 24 Ohms with both transducers connected, 278 Ohms with only the RH connected. (I didn't end up checking what it read with only the LH connected).

The green spade connector to the RH transducer is missing part of the connector. The connections had some powder, or dirt, that came off when I disconnected the wires from the LH transducer. The battery strap has perished.

Based on what I found I decided it'd do no harm to clean up the connections, the transducers, and the earthing, as a basic electrical hygiene.

I've now removed the battery and the earthing screw on the LH of the headstock. This had around 12 connections run to it! far more than I'd expected. I've removed the transducers and cleaned them externally and checked the condition of the earth wires (that come out of the transducers) and the 4 spade connectors in each. All seems OK so far. I've started tracing the various wires and connections. Tomorrow I hope to map out most of the wiring on paper. I've been videoing what I've seen and taken various photos.

My aim is to get the wiring and electrics fit to cope well with many more years of riding. I've ordered the 9-way housing and pins, and some new wire in various colours (1 sq. mm 18 AWG) to enable me to tidy up bits and pieces as I go. I already have some heatshrink, etc. Here's hoping I manage to find the gremlins. I'll check Mike's suggestions too. Chris had suggested disconnecting the green wire from the ignition switch but that didn't seem practical based on the wiring on the bike. And anyway, now I've seen a spark on the rear cylinder I can't blame the kill switch shorting the connection (entirely at least).

Thanks for your help so far. I'll post updates as they may help others in future with similar issues.
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 26 Jun 2017 07:40

A quick update. The bike stopped running after a ride to London and back, I'd ridden about 30 miles in, and 25 miles home before it stopped. Twas a warm day 25C I'd guess. The RAC brought the bike home.

I discovered that the ignition low tension coil now measured 58 Ohms, rather than around 300. I ordered a new coil from NLM. As mine's an X3 it apparently has a 'fatter' stator, with more laminations than earlier models. Stuart of NLM reckoned I might have to remove one or two of the laminations to get the coil to fit. Thankfully I didn't need to, even though my stator is - indeed - wider than one from the earlier models (I'd managed to obtain a stator from an older Kanguro in the interim). The difference is around 0.7mm in width (as best as I can measure them roughly 10.3mm on the older stator and 11.05 on the newer one). As the coil was quite tight (partly as someone else had already done work on the stator and seemed to have removed and refitted an ignition coil) I carefully sanded down the outer laminations (mainly using 800 grit, also some gentle filing, topped off with Autosolvol paste to polish the stator). I checked the coefficient of expansion of steel and iron online to see whether it'd be prudent to allow a greater tolerance (i.e. a loser fit) - if I read the calculations correctly the expansion was insignificant even for a 200C increase in temperature in the metal, and I guess the plastic of the former would also heat up and morph rather than splitting or bursting. Let's see...

I slowly/carefully rebuilt the stator (I've got lots of photos BTW) and rewired the connections. I then reassembled the bike and did a quick test to see if it'd run - it did, quite happily until the carbs ran out of fuel. I'm now tidying things up (including touching up paint on the frame where the wiring went) before taking the bike out for a test ride.

I've also ordered and received a pair of new transducers from Italy (the Nouvaray ones mentioned on the Dutch web site) http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/tech.html They're no longer listed on the Nouvaray web site http://www.nuovaray.com/shopricambivint.html however they're in the catalogue and the staff at Nouvaray were helpful and confirmed they're available when I asked. The price has increased significantly to 85 euros each (see below)

NR-C30 32.3982 you ask for is available and it’s the right one.
· Cost= 85 euro each
· Shipping fee= 25 euro

Here's hoping I don't *need* them but will *use* them since I've bought them :)

Oh, and someone before me has rewound the alternator windings - not very tidily, however they seem to work adequately so far (I'll explore how to test them as part of this exercise in helping restore the reliability of the bike).
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 13 Jul 2017 12:20

Here's another update on the unfolding saga of coaxing an old ex-retired X3 back into useful service.

General wiring
=============
I'm slowly making more sense of the wiring, partly as the bike came with a plastic bag full of miscellaneous paper including handwritten letters, receipts, reviews, etc. There were several wiring diagrams, not necessarily for this specific model, however one includes some notes of modifications. Also I've ended up having to fix a charging fault (see below) which meant I spend more time learning about where power flows in the wiring.

Low-tension coil
==============
The new coil is working well as far as I can tell. The bike seems to have more zest and power. However, on the test ride of about 20 miles (30km), I noticed some quirks with the fancy Vapor speedo where the digital rev counter was massively overreading (roughly double the true RPM, I think) and when I can home I noticed the headlight was slightly dim.

Charging
========
Long-story short, the regulator-rectifier seems to have failed. No power output and when I used a multi-meter diode and continuity tests (and checked whether DC was being output) there was no DC being generated. The regulator/rectifier has REF 4172 stamped on it, and MADE IN SPAIN. It has 2 groups of 3 make spade connections: one set for the AC from the alternator (of which only 2 are used on the Kanguro X3) and the DC side of it, albeit the -ve wasn't connected to anything. The return (earth) was via an insulated wire from the body of the unit to an earthing point by the headstock. There's a diagram of the pins online e.g. http://tractor.foroactivo.com/t4298-ebr ... r-ref-4172 (scroll down until you find it).

I found what seems to be an excellent inexpensive new equivalent unit https://www.lambertsbikes.co.uk/product ... dc-bridge/ which cost less than £15 including delivery. So far, so good. I wired it in temporarily to test whether it's suitable and it does the job. BTW: I'd added an explicit -ve return wire rather than relying on the casing to be the return. My next step is to fit this properly, refit the tank and seat etc and take it for another ride.

BTW: I measured the hand-rewound low-tension circuit and it measures either 1.0 ohms or around 4 ohms. I think the 1.0 ohms reading is more correct and includes about 0.3 ohms incurred by the meter leads I'm using.

And in the history of the bike it's had at least one, perhaps at least 2, replacement low-tension ignition coils. One was rewound in the UK and cost £75 about 20 years ago. The new low-tension coil I bought from NLM was significantly less. Vespa ones are even less (£6) and I've bought one for future experiments and perhaps use. I don't have a spare stator to try it out on (I'm not destroying the one extra stator I have (from an earlier Kanguro model) just to do the testing!).

Here's hoping it's going to behave for a long time now.

Ciao

Julian
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby MickeyMoto » 13 Jul 2017 14:16

Should've bought an XT600! :)

Is that your old Corsaro in NLM?
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby Ming » 13 Jul 2017 16:28

I don't know if the Vespa ones will work as they are wound with a much finer wire (so higher voltage, lower current, I suppose). However, if the Vespa CDI unit works on a Morini, why not, unless it's down to the 2 CDIs being in parallel?
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 13 Jul 2017 20:56

@MickeyMoto, yes that's probably my old Corsaro at NLM. I certainly sold it to them 2 months ago. I realised it wasn't what I wanted. I thought they'd sold it by now but haven't keep track of it. I bought this Kanguro the same day privately. It's been grumpier and more troublesome than I'd expected however I suspect that's because it hadn't been used much for several years (about 7 I think) as the seller has various bikes and used some of those instead. I'm fairly comfortable resolving the electrics and electronics and aim to prepare the bike so I can rely and trust it for long periods and distances.

BTW: I decided to sell the Corsaro first, as it dawned on me that I much preferred working on the older air-cooled pushrod models and didn't want to need to go fast to enjoy a bike. The Corsaro came into it's own at speeds above UK limits...
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 13 Jul 2017 21:00

Ming wrote:I don't know if the Vespa ones will work as they are wound with a much finer wire (so higher voltage, lower current, I suppose). However, if the Vespa CDI unit works on a Morini, why not, unless it's down to the 2 CDIs being in parallel?


I expect there'll be differences - let's see how it performs when I actually try it out. I'm happy to try various options and alternatives. I read up on the Dutch Morini web site where they'd rewound the LT coil by hand - if necessary I'd do that too to keep a bike on the road. Thankfully the LT coil from NLM seems to work well and I'm happy to use these for future bikes (I'm hoping this one won't fail :).

If my spare stator was from an X3 or equivalent I'd have tried the Vespa LT coil by now. There are also various Vespa stators available inexpensively & perhaps one day they'll help me or other Morini owners to keep a bike on the road when Morini parts aren't available.
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby norbert » 13 Jul 2017 21:39

You said that the winding of the light coils (not the ignicion one) look like handmade. Is the wire put directly on the metal nucleus without any plastic body (like the ignicion coil) and looks like a child had done the wiring? Then you have the strongest last generacion generator with about 200W! As far as I know the X3 Kanguros do have these generator (like for example the 501 that still do not have the kokusan ignicion). These generators require another regulator as the older models. I don´t know much about electric stuff (to be honest nearly nothing :oops: ). But with this generators normaly you won´t have problems to charge the battery for the electric starter :)

körperlose Lima.JPG
körperlose Lima.JPG (136.42 KiB) Viewed 1302 times
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 14 Jul 2017 07:02

Yes, Norbert, you're correct and you've aptly described the way the coils have been wound - particularly as mine seems to have been rewound fairly recently by hand. My coils, unlike the ones in your photo don't have the protective resin, and the way the windings have been done indicates it wasn't done with anything like the consistency or precision of the factory (even if their's also look amateur :)

Because I've got the latest type (before the Kokusan) which gives the higher power output I've not wanted to try the older stator I've obtained. It's the split windings type from an earlier Kanguro. I like my bike to have 'enough' power to keep the vast battery charged and so I can add some extra LED spot lights lights for riding in the dark (autumn and winter are never far away). The older alternator might still be sufficient as Kanguro's only have a 35W headlight (mine has a different headlight unit which still uses a 35W/35W headlight bulb) however this way I've 'enough' not to need to calculate whether power available is greater than power needed.

In terms of the rectifier/regulator the one I removed isn't specific to the Kanguro X3, and it might have been suitable for the older split windings stator (I can't test whether it'd be suitable as it's faulty). The one I bought is fine for the 2-wire AC output of this later type of stator. I don't think it'd work for the older type (as there's no connector for the third, red output from the stator). I'm guessing a universal 3-phase rectifier/regulator would be OK for the older type - I bought a couple of new pattern rectifier/regulators sold for Honda SuperDreams as spares, mainly for my Kokusan-powered 501 engined 3 1/2 They were £10 each. I think they'd also work on the Kanguro-X3 however we'd only connect one phase (the 2 A/C outputs). As my bike has non-standard wiring from the stator, with different colours there's little point me describing which colours need to be connected.

PS: If anyone has a spare X3 stator I'd appreciate it. That way I can prepare it and use it as a backup and also enable me to do some more experiments e.g. with the Vespa ignition low-tension coil.
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby Ming » 14 Jul 2017 15:48

You don't need to worry about the red lead from the stator - I use a Bransden 'Power Box' on my Strada. That is 2 phase and is connected across the two yellows, the red is just blanked off. Works well (for me) with the bonus that you don't need to fit a battery unless you want to.
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby julianharty » 14 Jul 2017 16:12

Thank you Ming,
Which Power Box do you use, they list lots http://www.boyerbransden.com/power_boxes.html
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Re: Please help me make sense of the Kanguro X3 wiring

Postby Ming » 14 Jul 2017 20:20

Not sure - it's getting on a bit! It's 180W 12V, so the basic one I think (12V single phase).
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