Camel - Draggy Clutch

Camel, Sahara, Kanguro, Coguaro
Butch
Posts: 94
Joined: 15 Oct 2016 16:47
Location: Essex
Location: Mid Essex

Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Butch »

I’ve only ridden the bike on a couple of occasions so far, and one of those was round my garden; but once the bike has warmed up a little the clutch seems to get draggy enough that at a standstill neutral is very hard to find. A cursory glance at the cable and lever adjustment suggests that it is probably about right. Is this a known trait or another area that I’ll be needing to look into?

Thanks
User avatar
72degrees
Posts: 1549
Joined: 31 Aug 2007 21:24
Location: West Midlands

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by 72degrees »

Butch wrote:I’ve only ridden the bike on a couple of occasions so far, and one of those was round my garden; but once the bike has warmed up a little the clutch seems to get draggy enough that at a standstill neutral is very hard to find. A cursory glance at the cable and lever adjustment suggests that it is probably about right. Is this a known trait or another area that I’ll be needing to look into?

Thanks
The end float between clutch centre and basket probably needs shimming to stop drag when hot (you may have not enough). NLM can supply the shims. It's a pretty easy job and evguru has put a video on Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdhuQTXPiR8
Butch
Posts: 94
Joined: 15 Oct 2016 16:47
Location: Essex
Location: Mid Essex

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Butch »

That link was great thanks.

So on shimming, you’re suggesting that the stack height might change as it warms, thusly changing the action. Would I expect to feel that through increasing slack at the lever, or is it just all internal (so to speak)?

Ta
EVguru
Posts: 1528
Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by EVguru »

The idea of shimming the clutch is to reduce the self servo effect caused by the end thrust of the helical primary drive gears and get a smooth takeup. I can't see it having a cold/hot effect on the clutch.

Go through my clutch overhaul, deburr the plates, hub and basket and reassemble with the conical plate the first steel plate in. If that doesn't work, then you're probably throwing a set of new plates in there. It's not much extra to get new steel plates too and they'er often what makes the difference
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Butch
Posts: 94
Joined: 15 Oct 2016 16:47
Location: Essex
Location: Mid Essex

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Butch »

Yeah – Watched all that last night. Many thanks.

Sounds like I’ll be pulling that down in a week or two then. Best I get a couple of miles on the road prior I think. Might give me a better feel.
User avatar
72degrees
Posts: 1549
Joined: 31 Aug 2007 21:24
Location: West Midlands

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by 72degrees »

EVguru wrote:The idea of shimming the clutch is to reduce the self servo effect caused by the end thrust of the helical primary drive gears and get a smooth takeup. I can't see it having a cold/hot effect on the clutch.

Go through my clutch overhaul, deburr the plates, hub and basket and reassemble with the conical plate the first steel plate in. If that doesn't work, then you're probably throwing a set of new plates in there. It's not much extra to get new steel plates too and they'er often what makes the difference
I was thinking of the possibility of a clutch that has been shimmed incorrectly previously, so that there is no end play at all, and the centre binds slightly,even stone cold. I can't see that being conducive to a nice drag free clutch. Like shimming valve clearances - you never know what someone has been up to before you, before you check them, and 'shimming' to me may mean using thinner or thicker shims. You would think that expansion of components due to heating up would be even and not affect the free play, but in my experience both dry and wet clutches can get less free when really hot - though perhaps not just 'warmed up a little'. Goes without saying that a classic clutch fettling job, as you describe is required, but while in there it would be silly not to check the end float.

At least a Morini dry clutch is so easy and quick to strip down and re-assemble in the search for perfection. Also, they don't generally go draggy just because there is a bit of wear on the clutch push rod, or if they do, the throw-out lever can probably be adjusted to compensate. Not like Yamaha YZ250s - though they can be cured by inserting a valve shim in the right place.
Butch
Posts: 94
Joined: 15 Oct 2016 16:47
Location: Essex
Location: Mid Essex

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Butch »

My experience of clutch pack expansion with heat is the onset of excessive play at the lever and hence inadequate action on the clutch, which would make it drag. However, that is manifestly obvious by feel.

As you say, and as was clear from the video link – pulling it down for a once over is not a big deal. It’s not like I even have to make the case oil tight after, not drop the engine unit as you do with a Guzzi.

I’m an inveterate tinkerer, so though I’m going to run it for a few weeks and see how it goes I’ll probably pull it down for a look before long anyway.
EVguru
Posts: 1528
Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by EVguru »

Because it's an non ventilated dry clutch, you do just have to clean the dust out from time to time.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
Butch
Posts: 94
Joined: 15 Oct 2016 16:47
Location: Essex
Location: Mid Essex

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Butch »

Not sure that some of it could be a shift issue.

With the bike up on the table yesterday I figured I could make improvements to the shift linkage ... I couldn't. I guess they are all right shift by design but then the action is taken through by a shaft to the left side. I have found some crash damage around the left footrest which may have caused some distortion. I have some tight spots, enough that the pedal has no great enthusiasm for returning to central after each change. And whilst fooling with that it also felt as though I have no detente position in the box for neutral.

I've ordered up some nylon rod to make some better bushes in a week or so. The bike came with a new right shift pedal in the box of bits, and with the rear drum being cable operated it might yet be a better option to swap it around.

We'll see I suppose.
User avatar
72degrees
Posts: 1549
Joined: 31 Aug 2007 21:24
Location: West Midlands

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by 72degrees »

Certainly wouldn't help. Even on a 2C with a short remote linkage with rose joints on the same (right) side any binding can interfere with easy neutral selection. Plus they tend to suffer from a lot of lever waggle and lost movement as the pivot wears.

While I was rebuilding the 350 'project' engine I spent ages obsessing over the gear selector mechanism and the detent spring in particular. It all felt very stiff at first (particularly 3rd to 4th) but there was no doubt about there being a detent position for neutral. I was sure I'd got the stopper plate back in exactly the same position but re-did the assembly several times before I decided that there was only one way to be sure. Even with the cases together 'dry' selection it felt far from perfect and I had another 'dry run' before closing the cases. Fortunately, once full of oil and running I was overjoyed to find it selected all the gears OK on the stand and it seems OK now on the road.

Even so, and with a clutch that is nearing my idea of perfection, getting neutral can be a little tricky at times as it is inclined to go through it in to 1st or 2nd. Selecting it while moving slowly helps and in my experience tapping it down in to neutral from 2nd works better than hooking up from 1st.

You may find it much improved once you achieve a tight spot free linkage.
Butch
Posts: 94
Joined: 15 Oct 2016 16:47
Location: Essex
Location: Mid Essex

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Butch »

I'm embarrassed to say that having rolled the bike off the table I found where my missing detente position for neutral had gone. It was there all the time. Having replaced one of the arms incorrectly I had reversed the lever action and was trying to find it between 5th and 6th. Doh.
So sorted that and then even found a muddy lane to test things out on just as dusk was falling. Tyres weren't up to much for that.

But the clutch is lousy, so that will be coming apart for inspection. I'm going to source some new rose joints for the linkages, and make up some new bushes for the pedal.

All for another day.
Butch
Posts: 94
Joined: 15 Oct 2016 16:47
Location: Essex
Location: Mid Essex

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Butch »

Hmmmmm, this isn't going so well.

Got the outer plate off to reveal the clutch. Looks just a little bit oily in there. Filed up a bit of flat stock to tackle the nuts, but that just bent. Filed up the head of a high tensile cap head to leave two pegs for the nuts. Now the engine turns. Pulled the case off the other side and stuck a socket on the generator nut. Back on the clutch side and I have three of the five nuts loosened OK. The other two seem to loosen a part turn and then tighten again. Closer inspection shows that it is the stud moving with the nut before going solid again. Those nuts are soft enough that the grooves for my tool are starting to tear. I'm going to file up another 8.8 bolt to get the sharpest possible edge going into those nuts, but it's not looking good right now.

Is this fairly common? Should the nuts be that tight? Are there an hints and tips for this?

Thanks
EVguru
Posts: 1528
Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
Contact:

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by EVguru »

Try watching my clutch videos again.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
User avatar
Ming
Posts: 798
Joined: 01 Aug 2014 16:32
Location: France
Location: Central France

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by Ming »

Those nuts need only to be bottomed on the studs, no real torque involved (they will be under spring pressure, after all). If you have studs turning, I think it's a basket-off job to replace them. Once again, I think Paul has a video covering 'how to...'.
User avatar
72degrees
Posts: 1549
Joined: 31 Aug 2007 21:24
Location: West Midlands

Re: Camel - Draggy Clutch

Post by 72degrees »

Ming wrote:Those nuts need only to be bottomed on the studs, no real torque involved (they will be under spring pressure, after all). If you have studs turning, I think it's a basket-off job to replace them. Once again, I think Paul has a video covering 'how to...'.
It does sound like the studs have come loose in the centre. Not that uncommon. WeVee used to reclaim them. I can thoroughly recommend their hex head clutch spring nut conversion and 'assist' washers. (I think NLM do hex nuts but at a premium price ) No temptation to overtighten them at all then.

I was lucky with the 77 Strada engine that had been sitting under the bench for 7 years. I managed to shift the slotted nuts with mole grips - mind you, knowing I was going to do a complete engine strip I had soaked them in plusgas first.
Post Reply