New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Camel, Sahara, Kanguro, Coguaro
huub
Posts: 194
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 15:11

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by huub »

the electric start from any other morini twi should fit, only issue is you will need a 12 volt battery to run it .
early camels had a 6 volt battery , probably to safe weight, so a bit of rewiring , and a 12 volt battery and regulator will be needed
if you are desperate i have a complete electric start lying around but postage to the other side of the world might get expensive.
rossguzzi
Posts: 433
Joined: 23 Jan 2019 14:21
Location: Perth W/Australia

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by rossguzzi »

Thanks Huub.
I may take you up on that offer, but first I will get clarification on another offer I have had first.
Cheers.
Steve Brown
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Steve Brown »

You know I said my electric start was working out fine? Well it might not be so rosy. It has been fine and reliable up till this last couple of weeks. The clutch is sometimes reluctant to engage. It is only now reliable if the battery has been on it's special (lithium) charger for a few hours. It then manages to work for a while, maybe a dozen starts or so till it needs charging again. I still haven't been able to make sure it isn't the clutch at fault-I only rebuilt the motor and it's gearbox-the three shoes assembly and the chain are all old bits, or if the battery is gradually going the way Paul Compton said it would.
Luckily the bike kickstarts well enough but it does get a bit tiring after the six or seventh unplanned dismount in muddy ruts.
Still, it's all good character building stuff. I may end up going back to kickstart only if my experiment fails and I can't find an AGM battery that fits the space available.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
rossguzzi
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Location: Perth W/Australia

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by rossguzzi »

Steve,
Is it a Lithium battery ? I thought they would work fine. Till you get a very cold morning.
Unherd of in the UK I thought :lol:

Sorry Just reread your post. At a guess, it's the battery playing up, it's too cold when it's happening or clutch shoes need renewing ??

I forget what Paul said would happen ? Is the bike charging not compatible for Lithium ? This was the route I was thinking of going.
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Ming
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Location: France
Location: Central France

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Ming »

rossguzzi wrote:... Is the bike charging not compatible for Lithium ? This was the route I was thinking of going.
Not an expert - but from what I've read you do need a different charger. Have a look at this site (one of many) for technical explanation. http://www.enerdrive.com.au/can-charge- ... d-charger/
Steve Brown
Posts: 1390
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Steve Brown »

rossguzzi wrote:Steve,
Is it a Lithium battery ? I thought they would work fine. Till you get a very cold morning.
Unherd of in the UK I thought :lol:

Oh it's tropical here alright...Yes it is a lithium battery and I have the proper Optimate bench charger too. So if it ain't the clutch...

Sorry Just reread your post. At a guess, it's the battery playing up, it's too cold when it's happening or clutch shoes need renewing ??

The shoes do need doing really, but the problem only starts when the starter has been used a few times during one run over a period of a few hours say.

I forget what Paul said would happen ? Is the bike charging not compatible for Lithium ? This was the route I was thinking of going.
In older threads on this forum a lot of people have asked about using these new magic batteries for the obvious reasons on weight saving, performance and space too. Paul knows a bit about this subject and has repeatedly warned meddlers like me that it will end in tears. Mainly because the bikes charging system is wrong for the lithium types. My understanding of the subject even after read loads of info about it is sketchy to say thew least. However as I managed to get a battery at trade price, and the suppliers said the internal control circuits of the battery would compensate, I decided to take a risk on it. I hope you all understand I'm doing this out of my own pocket for your benefits, in the name of research. Or just being a prat. Not sure exactly what I'll do next but I will waffle about it on here so that people with more lathes, education and skills than me can have a laugh at my expense (again).
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Steve Brown
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Steve Brown »

Ming wrote:
rossguzzi wrote:... Is the bike charging not compatible for Lithium ? This was the route I was thinking of going.
Not an expert - but from what I've read you do need a different charger. Have a look at this site (one of many) for technical explanation. http://www.enerdrive.com.au/can-charge- ... d-charger/
Hi Ming, yes I have the correct Optimate charger but suspect it's the bikes charging system letting things down. Will have to look at it some more as I like the convenience of the starter on a trail bike.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
rossguzzi
Posts: 433
Joined: 23 Jan 2019 14:21
Location: Perth W/Australia

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by rossguzzi »

Ok, I am completely ignorant about electrics, but why then does a lithium battery work in other 2004 onwards bikes. I had one in my KTM 990 Adv and it charged it fine.
Just trying to understand, that's all.
Steve Brown
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Steve Brown »

rossguzzi wrote:Ok, I am completely ignorant about electrics, but why then does a lithium battery work in other 2004 onwards bikes. I had one in my KTM 990 Adv and it charged it fine.
Just trying to understand, that's all.
If I could answer that Ross I would! It's about more than just the volts and amps and has something to do with too much/little at the wrong times. Whenever I read about the stuff I have to go for a lie down. Been out trail riding again today and the battery was unable to crank the engine even first thing after being on the charger all night. It still has enough volts but I don't know how many amps or even if that is the problem and not the starter clutch. I'll get on to it soon, enjoying the ride too much to stop just yet.

Did you get the speedo cowl OK?
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
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Ming
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Location: France
Location: Central France

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Ming »

rossguzzi wrote:... why then does a lithium battery work in other 2004 onwards bikes...
Steve Brown wrote:...the battery was unable to crank the engine even first thing after being on the charger all night. It still has enough volts but I don't know how many amps...
1. Perhaps because 2004 onwards regulators are more advanced in design / components than 1980s ones? 2. From what I understand, the output from our Morini regulators is just not compatible with a Lithium battery. After all, they are designed to charge a lead acid battery, not a Lithium battery, which has different charging characteristics. It may be that putting the Pb regulator on a Li battery actually damages the Li battery. :?
Steve Brown
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Steve Brown »

Ming wrote:
rossguzzi wrote: From what I understand, the output from our Morini regulators is just not compatible with a Lithium battery. After all, they are designed to charge a lead acid battery, not a Lithium battery, which has different charging characteristics. It may be that putting the Pb regulator on a Li battery actually damages the Li battery. :?
I'd like to try a rec/reg from something that uses a lithium battery perhaps? It would be hard to find one that isn't for a 3 phase alternator I suspect?

Riding mine today I had to use the kickstart all day. It starts well enough since I fitted the NLM transducer/coil pack from my 350 and also idles and picks up better. If I did dump the starter kit it would be a weight saving and maybe I wouldn't find the gear lever nocked into neutral quite so often in deep ruts!
It has been encouraging that I still seem fit enough (at 63) to repeatedly kickstart the bike after a sweaty hard work trail section and the occasional drop/stall/other failure to proceed. It's tempting to stop trying to prove the impossible is do-able, but that would just be giving in to common sense, surely? My lathe would have even less to do as well.

So does anyone know of a lithium battery compatible rec/reg that isn't 3 phase? I bet they make them in China and I have a Chinese niece-in-law who deals with the Chinese factories....hmm.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
rossguzzi
Posts: 433
Joined: 23 Jan 2019 14:21
Location: Perth W/Australia

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by rossguzzi »

Steve,
I got the cowl yesterday. Thanks :D

Not having looked at my bike for a week or so (been away) I am guessing the only other alternative is a 12v normal battery where the tool box is. Anyone done this ? I would not be adverse to doing this as I ended up ditching lithium from my 990 because of hit and miss starts when cold. In my 2004 Aprilia Tuono, this can lead to starter sprags to die an early painful death :shock:
morini_tom
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Joined: 05 May 2006 13:47
Location: Northampton

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by morini_tom »

Steve,

I’m in the ‘not adopting lithium’ camp for my bikes because for me, whilst the size, weight and performance capabilities are appealing, the charging concerns and failure consequences are too high. But I do understand the draw any why many people fit them.

I guess with the camel, apart from the weight, space is a problem?

When I built the 501 dart I had a similar space issue, but rather than going down the lithium route, I fitted the smallest battery Odyssey do. Because it’s an AGM battery, it can be mounted any way up and won’t leak if gravity gets the better of you. Odyssey use really good quality lead and they are able to achieve really good cranking currents for their size.

The PC310, which is what I’ve got has about the same foootprint as the original battery in the dart, but around half as tall. It never has any issues starting the dart, and I even ran it on the 1200 corsaro for a year and it was completely up to the job of starting that.

More info on the odyssey website, but if it looks like the 310 will fit, you’re welcome to borrow mine for a trial before you commit hard earned cash.

https://www.odysseybattery.com/Specs/ExtremeSeries
Steve Brown
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Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by Steve Brown »

Thanks Tom, I may take you up on that offer. You're right too about the space being a main issue here. I did look at their website already and wondered how much oomph a 310 would have. Your experience is encouraging, ta.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
morini_tom
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Joined: 05 May 2006 13:47
Location: Northampton

Re: New to me mk1 Camel in OZ.

Post by morini_tom »

No problem Steve, you know where I am so just give me a shout- the dart is off the road at the moment so I’m not using the battery right now anyway.
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