New Owner with 501XE Camel

Camel, Sahara, Kanguro, Coguaro
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Over this weekend I found and purchased a 1986 501XE Camel with only 6000 miles on it. The motorcycle has not run in some time, but appeared to have compression from the kick starter. Really it's in beautiful shape, and I'm really looking forward to going through and getting it running and riding. It came with service manuals, so I figure I'll go through and make sure that the valves are adjusted properly, change the timing belt, clean the tank, replace fuel lines, rebuild the carbs, etc. It has PHBH 30 carbs on it, so I'll get some rebuild kits ordered for those.

One odd thing about the motorcycle is that the brake calipers and no master cylinders (the whole master cylinder/brake handle is missing from the handlebars). Not sure why these would've been removed. So I'll need to see about what I can source for those, or else retrofit something else (although obviously the preference would be to use the correct parts).
Steve Brown
Posts: 1390
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Steve Brown »

Welcome Ted, hope you can find what you need. I suppose someone just used your bike as a Christmas tree when he/she was short of parts!
Those carbs you mentioned were I think, a USA only fitment for emissions compliance, they don't seem to be very popular and have a reputation of being difficult to set up. If they don't play nicely for you without too much expense I would consider looking at the carbs fitted to the European models.
Good luck with it anyway!
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Hi Steve, thanks for the input. What carbs were fitted to the non-US models? 28s? I found an article that stated the 501s had 28s on them.

I'll see what it takes. I took the right side cover off to look at the timing belt (exceedingly old, it seems...) and am going to plan to go through everything before I attempt starting it. I found some records from the previous owner (who passed away) that he'd taken it to a shop complaining of cutting out above 4,000 RPM. No idea if that was resolved, so I figure both the fuel and ignition system should get looked through.
'It must be a .....'
Posts: 365
Joined: 12 Sep 2010 12:25

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by 'It must be a .....' »

Hi, I had problems with a 501 not reving above 4,000, and after many tweaks to ignition, filters, exhaust and carbs etc the problem was solved by fitting larger main jets; the bike had standard settings in the 28mm PHBH Dellortos
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Thanks, that's something that's good to consider and look at.

I've spent some more time looking through the motorcycle. Fortunately it came with the factory manual (in Italian and English, which is fortunate since I don't speak or read Italian :) ). I've replaced the timing belt and am going to set the valve lash as well, and start testing the systems.

The ignition modules for both cylinders look probably original, and the ground wires have the insulation falling off of them and are corroded underneath that falling off insulation. So, this is a question as to whether or not those are working as intended. I have carburetor rebuild kits coming and will go through them, and likely do a few ignition tests before that to see if I can get a spark of some sort. From doing basic tests, it does seem to have a fully functioning 6-speed transmission, kick start works, compression in both cylinders, and the timing marks were lined up perfectly with the old (and new) timing belt, so it doesn't seem to have concern there. The tank being dirty inside will benefit from a good cleaning and reseal.

I purchased a new (6V) battery and installed it. After charging it, it is working somewhat. I say somewhat, because this is not like other motorcycles where I essentially have full electrical functionality just sitting there with the key on and the engine off. The headlight is very dim, brake light/taillight works but is dim, when I hit turn signals the "turn" indicator illuminates, but I don't see the turn signal bulbs illuminating and there is no flashing. I am wondering if this is considered normal for this motorcycle without the engine running, as the battery is exceedingly small and the generator seems to be relied upon heavily for system power (especially with it being the exclusive source of power for ignition). Can anyone comment on normal behavior? I have not gone through to clean grounds or other connections, but I do notice that the voltage once I put a load on the battery seems to drop the battery voltage significantly.

Looking forward to making this run!
Steve Brown
Posts: 1390
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Steve Brown »

Hi Ted, as Ian mentioned the carbs on other 501s are 28mm and a common type if you do need to replace them.
As for your other questions-those earth leads are prone to corrosion. An easy dodge is to see if your ignition packs (aka transducers) have a white terminal in the top row (Bianco=white) and if so, use them to earth the transducers. The later models like yours usually had this connection, and it is normally connected to the back plate of the stator inside the flywheel. That should be good enough if all is clean and sound connections, but no harm in a belt and braces approach here by earthing them to the frame.
As for your battery and light connections it sounds like some previous owner has misunderstood the electrical system or maybe even tried a full 12 volt conversion on it?
Originally, the 6 volt battery is only for the tail lamp, stop lamp, hooter, instruments and indicators. The head lamp was powered by 12 volts AC direct from the flywheel, through the dip switch.
It is easy enough to do the 12 volt conversion but a battery to fit the standard holder can be hard to find.
The manual you have may not show the dual 6v/12v system of the trail bikes so leads to confusion! If you take a look through some of the youtube videos by Soren in Denmark and Paul Compton in UK, as well as the technical pages on the Dutch club website, there is a lot of good info on how these bikes get their sparks and lights. Also on why they sometimes can fail. It's usually down to either old age and corrosion or operator errors. Or a mixture of these things.

If it was me I'd be looking to see what voltage bulbs are fitted in the various lamps, checking that all the earth points are good and that the rest of the wiring is not as corroded as those transducer earths you found.
I'd also pour a little oil over the rockers and valve stems and down the pushrod tunnels before starting it. The top end is fed by oil mist rather than pressure, so an engine that has stood a while can get a bit dried out.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Thanks for the details on the system, Steve. I'm now thinking that the system is probably working as intended. There seems to be a tiny bulb in the headlamp that runs on 6V. That is turning on. The main bulb does not appear to be turning on. If that runs off of a normal 12V, then that would explain why I am not seeing anything. I will wait until I get the bike running to analyze much further or consider a full conversion.

I did manage to hear the engine cough on Saturday, with a little starter fluid just to see if it ran. With that I confirmed the tach works - it only ran for half a second or so until it ran out of the little bit of starter fluid I sprayed in, but that made me smile. The tank is off, carbs are off, but I just wanted to see if the ignition seemed to work as intended. So I seem to be good there (also tested with an ignition tester and both cylinders seemed to be lighting up). The valve lash is perfect and I'll add some oil to the top end before running it for real. Timing belt is changed and that is fine too. So really, it's mainly the brakes, rebuilding the carbs, cleaning the fuel system.

My motorcycle doesn't seem to have any fuel filters in between the tank and the carbs. I haven't pulled the petcocks off (this seems to have the odd arrangement of one petcock per side - a little confused on that as I've not seen it before, but it seems to be because of the nature of the tank that looks like it would end up having fuel slosh into both sides). I'm not sure if it's considered common practice to add them or if there are screens in the fuel system, I suppose I'll find out about the screens as I take things apart. But some sort of filter might not be a bad idea.

As the tires have date codes of 2000, I'm going to order some new ones and new tubes as well. So the first time I ride it, it should be pretty much ready to go.

I also changed the oil which was old and dark, but seemed fine. Nothing in the oil filter screen either. The brake light switches do seem to be working as intended.

For the brakes, I think what I'm going to do to start is adapt some brakes off of a Kawasaki Ninja 250. The brake setup is similar, rotors almost identical in size (identical for '88-'07, I went with '08-'12 brakes), the handlebars are 7/8", and they should be an improvement over stock. More importantly, they were extremely readily available and I have take-off calipers and master cylinders for front and rear coming to me for under $100, so it's a cheap experiment. I'll have to fabricate some brackets for the calipers which shouldn't be too difficult (I do a good bit of custom work). That'll at least get me going and I can look for the stock parts if I feel so inclined once I get it running and riding.

I'll go through and clean all the connections that I can get to (which do seem to need it) and try to give the system the best shot of working properly when I get it running. Someone has done some work to this in the past. The plugs are virtually new, plug wires look it as well, and a lot of other things looked to have been addressed. But given the service records from the previous owner, it seems he didn't know how to fix things himself, and was relying on shops with no familiarity and such places usually don't want to take the time to learn about an obscure model, so there are probably some things that are off. The fact that the valve lash was spot on is promising.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Another question - I am thinking that I'd like to change the front fork oil just because I have no idea if it's ever been done. The manual specifics BP HLP 80 oil, which seems to be an out of date oil/spec.

Is there a recommended equivalent oil to use? I'm figuring that I want oil that would be good for off-road handling if there is a different recommendation for different kinds of riding.
Steve Brown
Posts: 1390
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Steve Brown »

Fork oil is a pretty standard 10W but plenty of folk have tried up to 20W and as low as 0W. Take your pick!
The headlight should only light up with the engine running-I dunno but a US bike may even have it on all the while? Ours have on the left bar switch block a lights Off/Pilot/Headlamp switch as well as the dip switch.
As for filters there was normally a gauze on each tap inside the tank and a small disc gauze on each carb underneath the fuel pipe banjos. Make sure these are present and correct and give the tank a good clean/derust.
Your brake plan sounds good too, the originals are nothing special but are a bit pricey for what they are.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Thanks, Steve, I appreciate that. I'll do some looking and see what might make sense. Also will probably see how it rides once I get it riding, and maybe change it after I ride it a bit since that's something that's simple enough to do and not required for initial riding.

The headlight has a three position switch like you said - off and then two "on" positions. In either of the "on" positions, the tiny (pilot?) light inside the headlamp is illuminated. That seems to be run off 6V. Once I get it running for longer than half a second on starter fluid, I'll see how the rest of it goes. A full 12V conversion may be in its future, but no point in doing that right now.

I have a POR 15 tank cleaner/treater/sealer kit that I'm going to use prior to putting fresh fuel in the thing and trying to run it. There's enough rust in there that I think this would be a good idea and cheap insurance.

New tires and tubes are en route as well, I decided to go with Michelin StarCross 5 Medium tires.

The brake parts should hopefully arrive this week, so depending on how much garage time I get (and how much effort ends up being required for my fabrication efforts on caliper mounts/adapters), hopefully this will be riding by the end of the month. We're having some nice days here in Kansas that I'd like to be out riding this on, but I'm making due with one of the other bikes in the stable. :)
3potjohn
Posts: 1243
Joined: 02 Jun 2007 13:58
Location: Devon

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by 3potjohn »

I would make certain you can get the fork top nuts undone before draining the oil. I use a thin rod in the stanchion to assess the level of the oil. The refill amounts quoted is by weight rather than volume. I weighed the oil on the kitchen scales when no-one was looking.
John
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

Good point, John. I figure I'm going to not bother with fork oil until I start riding it a bit and see what I think about how it rides.

I got the carbs rebuilt today. They weren't in very bad shape for sitting, but the seals were definitely all very brittle and in need of replacement. The screen had some debris in it for the forward carb, rear one looked better. Really the rear carb was better all around, but it still needed cleaning.

New tires should arrive tomorrow, and the POR 15 tank sealer says it needs 4 days of cure/drying time before I put fuel in the tank. That's probably fine since the brakes are probably not going to arrive until the end of this week or next week.

The petcock screens are obviously old and I think should be replaced. Right now, the motorcycle has what seems to be a bit of an odd setup to me (at least, not what I've seen on any other motorcycle). It has a vacuum petcock on the right side and manual petcock on the left side. The manual petcock also has the float for the reserve light on it. Both petcocks do function correctly and seem to be working just fine, but the screens do concern me a bit given they're obviously old and brittle. The left side petcock with the float that activates the reserve light doesn't seem to be set up for easy replacement of the screen. I suppose I'll do some searching to see what I can find stateside. I like having the fuel reserve light, but I also don't mind just manually having to switch to reserve fuel, I've had plenty of bikes like that in the past.
3potjohn
Posts: 1243
Joined: 02 Jun 2007 13:58
Location: Devon

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by 3potjohn »

I think having used POR15 a fair bit in many years the main things are that the tank ,having been cleaned out must be absolutely bone dry. I used to use a vacuum cleaner on blow. The seams at the at the edges are the hardest to dry . Then really let the sealant cure. Avoid getting any on the outside threads of the fuel tap ports.
On another bike my fuel tap sensor broke yesterday.
John
Steve Brown
Posts: 1390
Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
Location: Leicestershire

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Steve Brown »

As John says ref POR15, thorough cleaning and even more thorough drying is essential. The stuff does seem to work so far though.
Fuel taps, the vacuum one is original and if it works great. The reserve tap and sensor, well I never had one work yet on four different bikes. I didn't know then that Moto Guzzi had used them too. No idea if the level they switch at is the same? I usually end up buying new manual taps and the filter screen comes with it then!
Why not just change your fork oil before riding it with something cheap, that way they get a clean out without stripping them. I'll bet the oil that comes out now will be well past it's sell by date. It always surprises me how contaminated fork oil gets in a short time. Not as sensitive as brake fluid but for a couple of quid extra it's well worth the effort.
All donations to the rest home for old Camels, Leicestershire.
Ted
Posts: 38
Joined: 02 Jan 2022 13:58
Location: Paola, KS USA

Re: New Owner with 501XE Camel

Post by Ted »

I've used the POR 15 tank sealer before and have had good results with it. I agree with making sure it's absolutely dry. My shop is heated and aside from having blown the tank out, I'm giving it a few days to dry out before applying the final coating.

Steve, good point on just changing out the fork oil with it having sat for an unknown amount of time. It wouldn't be a bad idea to do before riding. I may take a look and get some 10W oil to swap out and go from there.

My tires arrived today, brakes on the way, work continuing...
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