125 WITH NO SPARK

[themoudie]

Aye Leonard,

Thank you for the update and detailed info re. the rotor. I shall get the stove lit in the workshop tomorrow and have a looksee.

At -7°C last night and going lower tonight, it's a bit parky! However, no complaints, as we don't have the white stuff that you are getting further south and east.

I will update and post images.

Good health, Bill

[125H]

Hi Bill,

yes a bit too cold for working on bikes in sheds and garages, we have only had a small amount of snow nothing like what they had in the south.
I have two flywheel but they both look the same to me - unless something is missing from both of them the only solution would be finding a new one to compare. There is of course the question of magnetism has this reduced over the years and as they are composite magnets I am not sure if they can be re - magnetised.

I wish I could find a real expert out there who knew what he was talking about - just keep paying out with no result.

Regards
Leonard.

[themoudie]

Aye Leonard,

So, out in the workshop today, with the stove going and the temperature hovering at -4°C inside. Must be daft!

I have had a look at the rotor through a watchmakers loup at x5 magnification and the only thing that I came up with was a flake of steel, about 3mm long x 1mm wide, attached to the end of the more central trigger point inside the stator. I have de-greased the whole stator, blown it all out with air at 80psi and then wiped everything with a lint free cloth and inspected for more small slivers of steel attached to the composite magnets/timing trigger points until I couldn't see anything when using the x5 loup.

With other bikes partialy dismantled for an annual checkover, space is a bit tight to fire up The Minx and I didn't want to open the doors wide for ventilation, with -6°C ambient temperature. So, I have yet to see if the removal of a small sliver of steel from the end of one of the timiming trigger points has affected a cure. I will post after testing.

My rotor part number is: 31.96.91 and I too have the rectifier/regulator that is an alloy box with a detachable alloy lid, revealing all of the components. It is not sealed and has no affect on our problem, as the ignition is a separate circuit from the charging circuit. As I have previously explained, my OME trigger coil appeared to be OK when tested for resistance and signal voltage, but only produced the positive half of a sine wave signal and not the corresponding negative and so it was replaced with an Old New Stock Ducati Electronica trigger coil, purported to be of the "correct" type! However, if the sliver of steel was in place on the end of the timing trigger point at the time of testing and this is the reason for the lack of ignition advance, there may be nothing wrong with my factory fitted trigger coil. I may yet have to disassemble the OME trigger coil from the stator and replace it with the factory fitted coil, in case the OME is of the incorrect type to match the CDI/HT module.

In the meantime, I have attached 4 images showing that my trigger points are in good condition, the timing marks and alignments, with the keyway on the rotor, the 3mm sliver of steel attached to the trigger point, for information and reference.

As for your query

There is of course the question of magnetism has this reduced over the years and as they are composite magnets I am not sure if they can be re - magnetised.

Paul Compton (EVguru) offers a re-magnetising service for Moto Morini rotors to members of the MRC. Personally, I do not think that my rotor has become de-magnetised, but you may feel yours requires attention and I would advise that you contact Paul directly to enquire about his service. You will have seen that he is aware of our cantankerous 125H's and he too, at one time, owned a 125H, but his didn't develop this "il folletto"!

Good health, Bill

[125H]

Hello Bill,

thanks for the reply, in regard of the rectifiers I made note as a point of identification only, my early bike is fitted with a plastic rectifier on a metal base and it also acts a a junction and fuse box, yours I believe is the later or improved type, also I think some even later bikes where fitted with one of those sealed aluminium finned units. but in my case it would have been difficult to wire those in.

I cannot see very much difference between the two rotors - the early or later one, the later one has more holes in the outer face, perhaps for cooling I don't know. When I bought the bike, the stator was in a very dirty condition, so decided on a rewind and new pick - up, however when I sent the complete set up off for recent testing was told it had not been rewound and the pick - up had not been replaced. Don't know if this is correct or it may just be bitchiness between the two business. I am not convinced the recent tester really knows what he is talking about and did not seem to understand how the rotor actually operates the timing. The only information I received was that it did not advance - which I new already and that cost me fifty quid.

Looking at the stator the soldering is crap and very amateurish so it could have been rewound or indeed may have been factory, I have not named names as I do not wish to get into the middle of a legal wrangle.

I cannot see any foreign bodies in either rotor and the magnets appear to have similar resistance to pulling off from them. I did contact Paul Compton but he told me his machine would not work with these magnets, they are a composite material. One of my German contacts also thinks the magnets have +side and a - side so cannot be re - magnetised like ordinary steel magnets which are probably the sort that Paul can work with - but again I am no expert. I think the only solution is a new rotor, if indeed the rotor is our problem, or finding someone with a 125H that actually works and borrowing the parts to see if that ignition works on our engines.

Finding a new rotor will probably be like finding an honest man in Parliament - the 125H was never officially imported into the UK and spares are difficult to come by, there are used rotors out there but again these may have the same issues - and are probably just good for paper weights.

I have contacted VAPE/Horse Power again but they confirm that production of the 125H ignition cannot be restarted so no good news there, wish I had done more research before buying the 125H certainly not a good idea. I will continue my search for parts or possibly a completely new system, if I can get anyone to build one, will clean these rotors up and when it warms up will try again just to see if I missed anything.

Regards
Leonard.

[themoudie]

Aye Leonard,

is the "Horse Power" that you refer to this company?

Link: HPI_Belgium

I purchased an ignition from them for the Ducati 450 MKIII and couldn't get it to generate a spark! As I had purchased two years before installing the system, any warranty was null and void, so it sits forlornly in a drawer! I am not sure what their Morini conversions were like, BUT! I found correspondence/information, even contact, intermittent at best and sketchy. I tried French as well as English!

Good health, Bill

[125H]

Hi Bill,

My understanding was that VAPE had been taken over by HPI or maybe the other way around although VAPE still appear to be operating in the Czech republic I may ask the Netherlands contact on this to make sure, but they have informed me that they will not longer make the system for the 125H or the 250 twin.

I had a long conversion with Nigel Lacy yesterday (Lacey Ducati) he was of the opinion that one of the Electrex ignitions could be fitted but it would take some engineering/machining of the flywheel not cheap and would take time, so not a quick fix.

I have found another rotor but am going to put things off no until the weather improves cold fingers and condensation are not my idea of fun!
Not sure if we will ever find an answer to all this which is a shame, it would be nice to find a replacement with all new compatible parts - but then pigs may fly! Even a new unit for a Lambretta 4 stroke if the parts could be made to fit may work.

Regards
Leonard.

[themoudie]

Aye Leonard,

Nigel certainly knows his stuff and good to hear his take on the problem.

However, your final sentence sums up my thoughts at present.

Good health, Bill

[125H]

Hi Bill,

I am sure their must be an ignition out there that would fit, I doubt very much from what I have read about Morini that the Ducati Elettrotechnica ignition was made specifically for them, its more than likely that Morini made their crankcase to accept a system that was cheap and readily available.
So perhaps we should make a broader search to see what else it was fitted to other than a Morini 125H.

Before I abandon this project altogether and move it on - there is a big sort of auto jumble coming up in Italy in February and one of my contacts on the continent s going to have a look around for 125H parts, if then I do not have any success its probably time to draw a curtain over the 125H affair and find something else to ride.

Regards
Leonard.

[125H]

Hi Bill,

a bit more and probably useless bit of information, a friend of mine had a Vespa some time ago and he distinctly remembers the transducer was the same as fitted to the Morini part number 323921 and says the ignition system looked very much the same as ours, as far as he could remember, He thinks it was a PE200 he had, possibly the same ignition would fit a 125H or could be modified to fit. I will try and do a bit of research but expect the Vespa was two stroke.

It may be just another avenue to pursue.

Regards
Leonard

[MickeyMoto]

Being a two stroke should not matter. Being a single and for simplicity the Morini will probably fire every stroke anyway. A lot of 360 degree parallel twins do the same. On the exhaust stroke the plug will fire. See 1970s Hondas with a single set of points and a centre tapped coil. Added bonus of burning unburnt fuel on the way out, cleaning the exhaust gases.

The only thing would be the advance curve (or step) from idle to full advance. Probably not subtle but the max advance may be different on a two stroke.

[125H]

Hi Mickey Moto,

yes the advance curve may not be correct, there is always an issue with these things but it would be nice to replace the whole system with one that works. I cannot find an answer to the problem, of advance or the lack of it and I don't know why. I think these ignitions may have bee borrowed from a 2 stroke and perhaps after time they somehow revert back but how I don't know. I had the stator rewound, replaced the pick - up and transducer and nothing appears to help, the only other issue may be the rotor which I am currently investigating, if it lost magnetism or perhaps is very dirty inside it may cause a lack of response, we shall see, but as most Morini part are used and may well have faults already trying other rotors may not work either.

Regards
Leonard.

[MickeyMoto]

You can test the magnetism with a large spanner. Does it fall off when raised?

[EVguru]

Older 2 strokes usually had fixed ignition timing. My Settebello racer didn't come on cam till over 6000rpm, so that also made do with tming fixed at full advance.

I'll say again, the CDI boxes fire when a fixed voltage is exceeded on their trigger input, the advance comes from the shape of the pickup waveform.

The article is in German, but you can at least look at the pictures.

https://www.motomoriniclub.nl/zuendung.pdf

[themoudie]

Aye Paul, thank you for your posting and the attachment.

I think that I understand that this article explains how the CDI adjusts the timing, according to the volts that it receives from the trigger coil and not the low tension power supply coil. The figure given is written as "1,38V". Is this 1.38v?

At this point I become confused, until I get round to translating the whole article into English! And even then I suspect a degree in electrical engineering is going to be required to understand the electrical principals! But, I may have a retired REME officer for assistance here.

When running the engine at 1,150 to 1,300 rpm the vAC coming from my low tension coil measures between 115 vAC and 122 vAC. Increasing the rpm to the point where the engine starts to splutter, at 2,000 to 2,500 rpm, the vAC coming from my low tension coil measures between 175 vAC and 185 vAC. If the throttle is then very gradually opened, so that the engine reaches 3,000 to 3,500 rpm, the voltage peaks at between 200 vAC and 205 vAC, at which point there is a collapse of the vAC being generated to 0 vAC, an immediate cut out of the engine, as though a short circuit has occured.

I haven't run the engine and measured the voltage of the signal coming from the trigger coil and if I understand correctly that I need to do?

The reason why the technician testing my complete system on his test rig thought everything was functioning correctly, may have been because he didn't grasp that I was running this ignition on a 4 stroke single and not on a 2 stroke single; in spite of my written description of the engine and supplied images. In Leonard's case the technician could not induce any advance in the ignition, at all, when running it on his test rig. I too cannot view any advance of the ignition, when using my strobe at the same time as taking the vAC and rpm readings described in the previous paragraph.

It is a bit late/early now to translate the text, but I will and try and understand it, before posting again, with any progress.

Slainte, Bill

[125H]

From what I can gather, the transducer does not have any effect on the advance and retard of this particular engine, this came from a Morini expert in Germany, who runs several different models including a 125H.
the advance and retard is/or should be effected by the pick - up and the rotor, the transducer is just a spark box that stores up energy and then releases it at the appropriate time. Now again I am no expert, if I were the problem would have been sorted by now, I have mentioned before that there is base setting achieved by aligning the two marks on the pick - up with the two marks on the rotor, the engine should then run, advance should occur at around 2000 - 2500 rpm but this does not happen with many 125H engines, its an ongoing problem. my German contact bought a used stator off of eBay and the engine ran fine, but it produced 12 volts on the generator side even though it was sold as a 125H part, disconnecting the charging system the engine ran fine and pulled well up to maximum revs so the ignition side was OK.

I am not sure about the rotor issue but once noted that the old NLM had several in stock, although they did not appear to do much business with the 125H so perhaps it is a rotor issue, my German contact is sending me one that works and is little used so will try it after Christmas but I am not hopeful at this stage, that a solution can be found without a complete new system, or perhaps abandon the project and buy something else before they screw the lid down!

Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to you all - I have some Italian beer on chill in the garage, which works better than their motor cycles.

Regards
Leonard.