short to ground? to stepper to shims!

Anything to do with the 1200 Corsaro series
twisty
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short to ground? to stepper to shims!

Post by twisty »

can a blown dipped beam headlamp cause a short to ground and give you one of those untraceable problems

I've just noticed a blown dipped headlight bulb and was wondering if it could give grounding problems before i realised it was blown.

I'd got rid of the water in the fuel (at that time dipped beam was working fine), then a few days later started to get an iffy response to starting.

I happened to notice that the garage wasn't lit up by the lights and noticed the dip was gone.

I seem to remember reading somewhere, that the blown bulb can act in the same way as a posive and negative touching as basically they fuse together to create a short circuit.

I'll change the bulb but i'm just curious as it's one of those things you least expect to cause a problem elsewhere (or am i barking up the wrong tree) :roll:
Last edited by twisty on 05 May 2011 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
DaveH
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Re: short to ground?

Post by DaveH »

A blown bulb is an open circuit...I can't see how it could cause a short to ground...?
Dave H


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twisty
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Re: short to ground?

Post by twisty »

:oops: told you, i'm stupid :?

i've had the bulb fixed and symptoms are still there . I reckon i've not quite flushed all the crap out of the fuel system and probably need a new fuel filter, as using the ducatidiag sofware its showing "left fuel rail as malfunctioning".

I was beginning to think i'd cocked up with the ducatidiag software as the bike ran fine before this was used. But when i changed to another ecu and reset the tps , still the same problem.So must just be coincidence :cry:

Strangely the onboard diagnostics shows no faults, but the symptoms are you either get the engine to catch first time or not at all.

if it does catch, with hand over the cans you can feel the misfire from one of the cans,then it will run.

If i can get it to catch and warmed fully up i should be able to rev the arse off it to flush the crap out. Its happened before but its annoying when you think it's fixed only for it to reappear when stone cold.
DaveH
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Re: short to ground?

Post by DaveH »

twisty wrote::oops: told you, i'm stupid :?
I reckon i've not quite flushed all the crap out of the fuel system and probably need a new fuel filter, as using the ducatidiag sofware its showing "left fuel rail as malfunctioning".

I was beginning to think i'd cocked up with the ducatidiag software as the bike ran fine before this was used. But when i changed to another ecu and reset the tps , still the same problem.So must just be coincidence :cry:

Strangely the onboard diagnostics shows no faults, but the symptoms are you either get the engine to catch first time or not at all.

if it does catch, with hand over the cans you can feel the misfire from one of the cans,then it will run.

If i can get it to catch and warmed fully up i should be able to rev the arse off it to flush the crap out. Its happened before but its annoying when you think it's fixed only for it to reappear when stone cold.
Hi Tom....I'd be surprised if this was water related, (but then I've been surprised before)....'Left Fuel Rail' ....WTF??

It may be coincidence but mine has just taken to spitting the dummy as well...went out a couple of weeks back, went about half a mile down the road, opened her up and suddenly everything locked up...skidding all over the place. Pulled the clutch and coasted to a halt...(my lad who was following said it looked dramatic though !!)

First thought was a cold seizure but it started up fine again...and it's not something normally associated with four strokes.

Anyway, since then it has got progressively worse at cutting out...especially when hot...it will stall before I come to a halt with the clutch in. Leave it a few minutes and it starts fine so I'm thinking electrics...either a duff plug or coil stick.

The reason for the post though is that there is an interesting thread on the Benelli forum at the moment regarding stalling/cutting out

http://www.benelliforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9234

Seems the stepper motor can cause all sorts of problems too...looking at the Morini workshop maual, it looks like the stepper in the Corsaro is an integral part of the TB's :cry:

I'll investigate a bit further next weekm once I get time to strip the bike down.
Dave H


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corsaro chris
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Re: short to ground?

Post by corsaro chris »

Dave;

I think that you might be on the right track with the Stepper Motor - they can cause all sorts of problems if they're not properly set up. As they're fundemental to cold starting, that's a good indicator to a fault, with or without the software testing kit!

An easy first step is to clean out the throttle bodies and air box - the bike is also sensitive to dirt there...

Good luck, and hopefully riding,

CC
"I'll use the Morini"
twisty
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Re: short to ground?

Post by twisty »

this is the error i'm getting
Ducatidiag             DTC_2011-04-15_16-29-10.png
Ducatidiag DTC_2011-04-15_16-29-10.png (57.82 KiB) Viewed 25689 times
I've swapped the coils to eliminate the fault codes. I'll need to take another reading once the laptop has recharged.

Funny i've been looking very closely at the stepper , but thats as far as it goes. Last time i had a stepper in my hand i powered it up and went "oh it moves" :? as it shot the piston across the garage floor.

Lesson learned.

update

Just had a look on the ducatidiag forum and "ebi" from the german morini forum was saying that the error that i've got for the coils is probably false as it keeps appearing if you delete the dtc codes, despite the bike running normally. So it must be an anomally :P


the following is an extract form a forum posting.
seems the stepper is the same one as fitted to the very early ducati 1098's

http://www.pompone.eu/viewtopic.php?f=2 ... 25&start=0
The explanation of Mass63 is corrected.

Technically something can be said more:

The air that serves to the motor for the starter is managed from the Stepper Motor that, to decreasing of the ambient temperature, must open a lot for giving to the motor guiusta the amount.
Unfortunately in all the Morini vehicles, except the Granpasso, this Stepper Motor slightly is sottodimensionato for the cubature of the motor, for which it arrives to the maximum opening that but turns out still insufficient when the temperature is near 0 °C.
If besides this reasoning we put also a P2o of untuoso warehouse around the butterflies (normal consequence of the Blow-By) the problem is magnified.

Therefore the Stepper is already all open, but the air amount is insufficient for the motor, the distributed benzine is that right one but the mixture air benzine is extremely rich: the candles are bathed, the benzine arrives in the catalyst and if to a sure point the motor set offs the heat of the gas sets afire the benzine to its inside rendering the drainage from the catalyst of a beautiful red color cherry.

This was the same problem that accused first 1098 that used the same Stepper: only solution is “to slightly aim” the accelerator till the starter, in order then to leave it to return to the position of butterflies sluices after some minute.

The Granpasso instead has received the version of Stepper that Marelli has studied for Ducati and, date its greater air capacity, the problem is not placed.almatt
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and for those of you with stalling problems this might be the answer
in relation to 1098 stepper motors
bear in mind its talking about a 1098 not a morini , but it's the bit about the stepper motor and the rich mixture relating to stalling that i thought was of interest
As mentioned in the translated forum post above , the posting below is from 2007 , so an early stepper the same as the morini's, so maybe the upgraded stepper from the 1098 or granpasso is an option. :roll:


http://www.ducati-superbikes.com/forum/ ... php?t=3574This isn't really idle adjustment as this string is on but..

"After much research and speaking with Various Ducati techs that have set up the bikes here is what you have to do to make the bike run with out stalling:

Tell the tech (politely) to follow these steps IN ORDER. Do not rely on the service manual, do not rely on what they were told at their service meetings. The following is the most consistant fix that seems to work. This is for bikes with slip ons, by the way. If you have a bad ecu, starter, poor ground that is a different issue. These steps may work for stock bikes, I don't know.

1) Measure the voltage and amperage of the battery. Make sure it is within spec. The specs are on the battery.

2)Reset the TPS (throttle position sensor). Even if it was done at set up, do it again.

3)Balance both cylinders to within .30%. Do not accept an explanation that it is un-necessary, that the bike was balanced at the factory, that they are never out of balance etc. Just do it. It doesn't matter if the CO level is 1% or 8% at this point, only that the cylinders are balanced.

4) Using the airbleed screws, set the CO at 4%-4.5%. Ignore the service manual that says .5 or .7 to 1.5 or 1.7. That is set artificially low for emissions purposes.

5)Set the trimmer at 23-25 clicks. You will be told that's quite a lot. Do it anyway.

Your stalling problem should be solved. I'm not guaranteeing that this will work with every bike or that it will never stall again. But it will solve 90% of the problems." - CAG (Ducati1098.net)

Does that really fix it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by OddDuc; 04-14-2007 at 09:58 AM.
DaveH
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Re: short to ground?

Post by DaveH »

Tom,

did you get chance to recheck the DTC's -
did swapping the coils move the fault code over to the other cylinder ?
Dave H


Ducati Multistrada 1200S DVT :)
Moto Morini Corsaro 1200 :lol:
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DaveH
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Re: short to ground?

Post by DaveH »

Just run the diags on mine....nothing showing on the on-board display but 13 codes in Ducatidiag !!!

Have cleared 'em all and run it up and mine too is now showing a sole 0351 code....

reckon just about every sensor registered a fault when I had me lock up....

will get ripped into it tmoz....

seems starnge that the 0351 fault is persistent on both our bikes though....wondering if the VDSTS software may have been a better bet after all !!
Dave H


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twisty
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Re: short to ground?

Post by twisty »

DaveH wrote:Tom,

did you get chance to recheck the DTC's -
did swapping the coils move the fault code over to the other cylinder ?
not had a chance to check if the error has gone by replacing the coils. I suspect the stepper is just sticking. Has anyone dismantled to lube the piston.

I thought my error codes were bad ,yours read like a dictionary :roll:
DaveH
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Re: short to ground?

Post by DaveH »

Tom,
Can't see how a sticky stepper could generate a coil fault code....having had a quick look at the tbs this aft, the stepper unit looks sealed...have you managed to strip yours?
As for my dictionary, not too frothed up about it (at the moment!)..reckon the whole shooting match had an epi when I had the lockup..I'll start worrying if they re occurr...
Dave H


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Moto Morini Corsaro 1200 :lol:
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twisty
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Re: short to ground?

Post by twisty »

the reason i was thinking a sticky stepper was what corsaro chris was saying.

I can get the bike to start if i use the adjusters on the thottle body twistgrip so that they just open the throttle butterflies.

It then starts at a high tick over abou 2500 to 3000.

Adjust the throttle and give the twistgrip freeplay so that it's the ecu controlling the tickover and it tries to start, but always dies. Jumps to about 2000 then dies again.

Its got to the stage now that i know whats going on and i can catch the firing and get the bike to idle but its very hit or miss and i wouldn't trust it on the road. If it's not caught in time the plugs are wet and need to be removed or wait 15 mins. You know the feeling , stuck at a junction as you crank and crank and are left with a flat battery.

The coil thing is probably the ducatidiag registering a fault , which isn't really there. I was wondering whether a touch of lubricant up the reverse end of the injection air hoses towards the stepper might work, as usually the stepper is just opening a smaller inlet air intake hose by releasing the flow or covering it by using a piston.

If you look at a benelli the stepper motor piston covers an opening to three small vacuum hoses , so on that one it is possible to squirt some lubricant up the vacuum tubes in reverse to the stepper piston which also tends to stick which can be seen when it is dismantled by rubbing signs on the anodised piston body.
Whether the lube is detrimental i don't know.!
DaveH
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Re: short to ground?

Post by DaveH »

Tom,
Stripped the morini...3 x exhaust valves were miles out 0.15 mm compared to 0.25 to 0.30 mm recommended.
Genuine Morini shims are £16 each inc vat from NLM !!!
KTM ones are identical (10mm od) and cost three quid each !!
Unfortunaletly the local KTM dealer had not got the size I wanted in stock and i wanted a quick turnround.
Managed to reuse 1 shim in another bucket and lapped the other two to the correct thickness.

Stripped stepper off throttle bodies and cleaned out with carb cleaner...didn't look too bad and was working correctly when cycled.

Put her all back together and ran it up...checked exhaust CO which seemed a little rich so leaned it off with the Ducatidiag trimmer...CO came down ok but then I couldn't start it again...BEWARE OF THIS...the trimmer can only be adjusted whist the engine is running and if set too rich/lean the bike will not start...adjust in small increment only.

Managed to get bike going eventually and reset trimmer to where it originally was....starting problem gone,

Still cutting out though...I'm now suspecting a coil stick so have got a couple of 2nd hand Ducati 1198 ones to try...
will post results as soon as I've got space on the bike lift to work on it....
Dave H


Ducati Multistrada 1200S DVT :)
Moto Morini Corsaro 1200 :lol:
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twisty
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Re: short to ground?

Post by twisty »

which ktm model is it for the replacement shims and how easy was it to strip the stepper. Did you break anything :P


On another note i see ducatidiag is doing the flash software to remap the stock ecu's. bckward compatible so you can load your standard map back on or even to store as a file in case of damage to the original ecu.

100 euros buys the program and license for one ecu and the maps are free as folk add to them

http://jpl250rs.perso.sfr.fr/MAPS/Morini/

may be of interest to someone
DaveH
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Re: short to ground?

Post by DaveH »

twisty wrote:which ktm model is it for the replacement shims and how easy was it to strip the stepper. Did you break anything :P
Tom,
KTM shims for the 450 & 530 EXC models are identical...the smaller capacity motors use different sizes.

Kits for sale on ebay for £50 for 84 shims which makes em dead cheap but I reckon it'd be overkill and most of the sizes would most likely be irrelevant....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Prox-Valve-Shim-K ... 27b9ea5383


As for the stepper, I simply removed it from the TB assembly for cleaning...it's only held on by two screws. It looks like a sealed unit and unable to be stripped, but at leat it's replaceable if we can identify what type it is. In the Morini Worrkshop manual it states that the whole TB assembly must be replaced if the stepper fails :shock: :shock:

It is likely to be an off the shelf part, but as yet I've not identified it...

If you remove it , reconnect the electrics and hold it while you cycle the ignition you can feel/see the plunger cycle to ansure its working correctly....
Dave H


Ducati Multistrada 1200S DVT :)
Moto Morini Corsaro 1200 :lol:
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twisty
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Re: short to ground?

Post by twisty »

thanks for that, and i'm keeping out of the arguments over the oil filters :wink:
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