Registration

[buell1203]

Bought an Italian import strata from e bay 2yrs ago. It came with the Italian erg doc but no customs forms. Before I bought it dvl a suggested I would be ok re registration.
I have recently delved into this and need customs forms before I can get it registered.
The options are..pay vat at based on customs estimation of the bikes value. It's up to them to determine.
Buy a uk reg frame and build that up..be lucky to find a 75 version though.
Trace the Italian erg agency to verify that duty was paid in the eu.
Trace the original importer to the uk..ha ha.

Strange that systems allege they keep no records of vat applied to imported vehicles. This begs the question of how they can verify that vat was/was not paid.

Anyone had this problem and if so how was it solved.?

[stillooking]

did you buy the bike from a dealer based in Italy or UK or was it a private sale? - I know you said it was e-bay but was it UK or Italy ?

will respond again once this is answered

[EVguru]

What customs paperwork? Italy is in the EU!

Ignore the import paperwork, you don't need it.

Get a dating letter from NLM.

Fill in the DVLA forms.

Sign the VAT declaration (it will have been paid in Italy) 'to the best of your knowledge'.

Take bike for inspection if necessary.

[buell1203]

Just read my e mail. Full of typos!!

Sorry.

Yes I agree re the Eu matter but the nice Vat man was adamant. I find it incongruous they expect me to believe they keep no records of payments. Duplicity at it best. We cant prove it is paid nor can you.. so pay up!! It stinks.

I was thinking of doing as you suggest but do not want to compound the matter by allowing them to suggest I made a false declaration. I really do not think they would believe my motives and it could leave me open to further investigation.

A few years ago I sold a Bmw to a buyer in Finland. Again Eu but he was charged nearly £400 in taxes which took two years to reclaim.

I will give Stuart a call tomorrow and see if he can assist. I bet he imported it anyway as not many others tend to!

[buell1203]

Sorry.I missed the post re E BAY.

It was a private vendor via Uk E BAY.

[stillooking]

Sorry.I missed the post re E BAY.

It was a private vendor via Uk E BAY.

Ah ok, Looking at EV's response, he's covered a few of things that I was going to raise, but just to add.

It's a pity the prev vendor didn't sort this, but anyway.....

I imported a Morini a while back from Italy, at the time I did complete a Customs & Excise (now HMRC) Form to say Italian Purchase Tax was paid + got a dating letter from VMCC + completed DVLA, V55 I think, MOT'd it etc etc.

Possible issue is if the bike was procured originally from a dealer in Italy who didn't produce correct tax invoice or indeed did not declare etc. then you may have problems ........but if we assume it was procured from an individual in Italy then it's a private sale, no VAT is applicable if you register it in your name and use the bike etc (i.e, not for commercial gain).

At this stage, I'm not sure what you've told HMRC and how it has affected their view point, but really they shouldn't be involved too heavily.....

if you're going to speak to NLM, you should get a good steer as they do it all the time, import that is

[buell1203]

Yes I spoke to Nlm today and recd good advice.
My discussion with HMCR was purely informative.They take my name and post code but nothing else. Once informed of the situation they immediately went into tax collecting mode,stating vat is payable at an amount based on current market values not what it cost me.
I have a copy of the original Italian reg paper proving it came from a member state but it was of no interest to them. They were adamant Vat would be payable before registration was agreed.
As I bought from a middle man(e bay) I have difficulty showing when it entered the Uk. Customs expect me to believe they hold no records to verify if duty is paid.I pointed out that in that case there is no proof it was Not paid but this held no water.
The belief is that I should just fill in the docs and give it a go. I do not however want to make false declarations. Even this is somewhat negated by the fact that what I enter is what I believe to be true.
I have written to the previous owner for more info but it is unlikely he will be forthcoming.

[stillooking]

Yes I spoke to Nlm today and recd good advice.
My discussion with HMCR was purely informative.They take my name and post code but nothing else. Once informed of the situation they immediately went into tax collecting mode,stating vat is payable at an amount based on current market values not what it cost me.
I have a copy of the original Italian reg paper proving it came from a member state but it was of no interest to them. They were adamant Vat would be payable before registration was agreed.
As I bought from a middle man(e bay) I have difficulty showing when it entered the Uk. Customs expect me to believe they hold no records to verify if duty is paid.I pointed out that in that case there is no proof it was Not paid but this held no water.
The belief is that I should just fill in the docs and give it a go. I do not however want to make false declarations. Even this is somewhat negated by the fact that what I enter is what I believe to be true.
I have written to the previous owner for more info but it is unlikely he will be forthcoming.

You don't say what good advice NLM have given you; of course no one was recommending that you distort the facts - wish you best of luck on this.

[andyroach]

I imported a container load of bikes and a 1964 Jag in to the UK in 1999. I only paid VAT on the Jap bike I imported for someone else(or it might have been an importation tax, can't remember). But I was told that as long as the vehicles where made within the UK I woudn't pay any VAT or import tax and didnt.
Has the law changed? or did I find an incompitent tax man?
All I did was take them for an MOT then go to the local DVLA office along with the reciept for the bike, MOT and any other doc's i had. they checked the frame/engine number, I paid a years road tax and 25GBP for the Reg document and that was it. I did 3 bikes in one day and still had time to go for a meal at lunch time.
Andy

[stillooking]

I imported a container load of bikes and a 1964 Jag in to the UK in 1999. I only paid VAT on the Jap bike I imported for someone else(or it might have been an importation tax, can't remember). But I was told that as long as the vehicles where made within the UK I woudn't pay any VAT or import tax and didnt.
Has the law changed? or did I find an incompitent tax man?
All I did was take them for an MOT then go to the local DVLA office along with the reciept for the bike, MOT and any other doc's i had. they checked the frame/engine number, I paid a years road tax and 25GBP for the Reg document and that was it. I did 3 bikes in one day and still had time to go for a meal at lunch time.
Andy

I seem to recall there was differing duty rates for EU & non-EU vehicles for imports from USA, not having imported from there I don't know for sure. Currently it stands at +6% for bikes + 20% vat. You may have got off lightly on that deal?

[Richard_Carrigan]

I bought a Sport off the German Ebay about three years ago - different country but the UK experience should be the same. I had to fill in a form regarding Duty and VAT which I had to collect in person from my DVLA office ( can't which form ) and because the Sport was over a certain age (it's a 1980 one) and I was importing from a fellow EU State there was NO import duty or VAT to pay. I did have problems registering the bike though - they insisted on seeing the original German documents and I had paper photocopies on me but that wasn't good enough. I also had to show them the original German numberplate & this might be because it proved the German vehicle 'road tax' had been paid. (the german seller was very keen to get the numberplate back so he could claim back some of the tax). With original docs and a UK MOT I received a UK registration without any bother.

The number plate issue was interesting : when I went to Germany to pick the bike up we should have attended their DLVA office to transfer ownership. The vendor would have handed his numberplate back for a refund and I would have been issued with a new, tempory one so I could legally ride the bike out of Germany. Howthe Germany civil servants close the office at midday so we missed them. It saved me 80 Euros but I had to ride back on the vendors plates. I've been told that Italy runs the same system and it only costs ten Euros but takes a week. Unless you walk along the corridor to a private individual with a stake of pre-registered plates who will complete all the forms for you while you wait and will hand you your new plate. Cost? 80 Euros.

[buell1203]

Thanks for the replies. They broadly mirror my view of the situation however life is never that simple. I am concerned that they need the original vehicle documents and reg no as I have neither. Only a photo copy which does not show the reg!!

The Vat form 414 asks for the original reg but I obviously cannot provide it.

All in all its a real bugger. One which the previous keeper was probably aware of hence moving it on. In my case I have unfortunately spent money on it.

[EVguru]

The last bike I registered was a 1972 Motobi Tornado I bought from NLM.

You do not need any registration or import documents, in fact it's better to have none, rather than paperwork that is not quite perfect.

Get a dating letter.

Insure the bike on the frame number (Peter James understand doing this, unlike some of the other insurers)
Take it for an MOT (must be booked in on the frame number). If you can find the references on the DVLA website, print them out and take them with you. It's not unheard of for the Police to try and impound a vehicle for not displaying a registration, despite riding to the MOT being perfectly legal. I broke down (blocked idle jet) right outside the police station, so of course I didn't encounter any Police!

Fill in the registration forms.

The Vat form;

I queried having to fill in this form, since I'd not imported the bike. For all they knew, the bike HAD been registered in the UK, but been declared scrapped, or had been written off, or the V5 lost before the transfer to electronic storage. It was a foreign bike, therefore a tax declaration had to be made. The bloke on the DVLA counter, just said to fill it in and sign. VAT must have been paid in Italy on the bike when it was new.

They may want to inspect the bike. There seems to be no consistency. Photographic evidence, or a signed affadavit from the MOT man are not accaptable. If you can find out what day/time they do vehicle inspections (good luck, it's no longer possible to phone the local office), you might be able to get them to do the inspection on the spot.

When they write down your frame number, make sure you check what they've written. Be prepared to tell the specially trained person that they have written down the type approval number instead(they've only been doing this for about 30 years). Even though I had an engine number, they weren't interested and it didn't make it onto the V5.

If all goes well, you should get a certificate in a couple of weeks with which you can get a number plate made. Later you will get the V5C and an ammended MOT certificate.

[moolfreet]

Sad to see things are almost as mixed up over on the other side of the channel as they are here in Belgium.

I bought a bike from a guy a while back here in Belgium. He had bought it in Italy and shoved it in the back of a van. He hadn't done any of the import procedures on arriving and was planning to do them when the sale eventually took place. He must've seen me coming.

There was a document missing because, as I understand it, the original owner in Italy had handed it in in order to get a payment for taking old vehicles off the road. It is possible to get copies of these documents from the relevant ministry in another country (such as Germany) - but practically impossible in Italy, it seems.

The seller's ploy was to report the papers stolen/missing and then get a lenient inspector to do the equivalent of an MOT - except the procedures had changed since he had last tried it and it was no longer possible.

I did manage the registration eventually but only because of a benevolent clerk somewhere - never did figure that one out.

[stillooking]

Thanks for the replies. They broadly mirror my view of the situation ....

??? I don't think so....