Anyone have experience with this set up?
http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/ZDG3/pd ... ini_en.pdf
New Ignition...
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Steve Brown
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
No, that's a new one on me, it looks pretty good till you read it needs 12v from the battery. The question then is how much current does it draw? I suppose the coil choice affects this some, but on older 350s at least, there isn't much spare electric juice after you switch your lights on and certainly with the Boyer types that can mean a flat battery and no go if you do a bit of town riding.
Maybe this one is better in that respect, but I can't see any mention of current draw there?
Any idea of the price?
Maybe this one is better in that respect, but I can't see any mention of current draw there?
Any idea of the price?
Yes it mentions that.
I read in Classic Bike a few months ago the article on
restoring a Guzzi Mach I, the owner mentioned he'd used
this ignition on his Morini Sport and was really happy with it.
(Happy enough to use it on his Guzzi too)
Here's the link with the price and some more info...
http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/index_en.htm
I read in Classic Bike a few months ago the article on
restoring a Guzzi Mach I, the owner mentioned he'd used
this ignition on his Morini Sport and was really happy with it.
(Happy enough to use it on his Guzzi too)
Here's the link with the price and some more info...
http://www.elektronik-sachse.de/index_en.htm
MRC #2795
There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the standard ignition, if it's in good condition.
It is of course a capacitive discharge system and that tends to give a weaker spark at low rpm. On the other hand in comparison to a conventional Kettering (points based inductive ignition) it has a much better high rpm spark. A modern ignition with dwell time control can overcome this and has other advantages, but the downside is needing a good battery. The Boyer system for example is notorious for low battery problems.
The standard Morini charging system works well in its limited way, but is different to most other systems. If the battery voltage is too low, IT WON'T CHARGE! Depending on your view, this is either a simple quirk of design, or a deliberate feature to prevent the alternator from being damaged trying to charge a battery with a shorted cell. On several occasions I've managed to get the light switch half way and have both dipped and high beam on. The alternator can't quite cope and the battery slowly discharges. Suddenly the lights fail as the voltage regulator turns off. If you have a good battery, the voltage pops buch up when you turn the lights off and the regulator starts charging again. You can also have charging problems if the ignition switched feed to the regulator is making a bad connection.
On my 501 engined Valentini replica I've got NLM's new pickup assembly which gives more accurate ignition timing at idle and therefore a lower stable idle speed. It's driving my own ignition circuit, which is just a copy of the original, but with tighter tollerance components and with some values tweaked to give a better advance curve shape. I've yet to run the bike in anger, but I was impressed with the way a Strada up at NLM could be started from cold and would then idle at little over 1000rpm in less than a minute.
It is of course a capacitive discharge system and that tends to give a weaker spark at low rpm. On the other hand in comparison to a conventional Kettering (points based inductive ignition) it has a much better high rpm spark. A modern ignition with dwell time control can overcome this and has other advantages, but the downside is needing a good battery. The Boyer system for example is notorious for low battery problems.
The standard Morini charging system works well in its limited way, but is different to most other systems. If the battery voltage is too low, IT WON'T CHARGE! Depending on your view, this is either a simple quirk of design, or a deliberate feature to prevent the alternator from being damaged trying to charge a battery with a shorted cell. On several occasions I've managed to get the light switch half way and have both dipped and high beam on. The alternator can't quite cope and the battery slowly discharges. Suddenly the lights fail as the voltage regulator turns off. If you have a good battery, the voltage pops buch up when you turn the lights off and the regulator starts charging again. You can also have charging problems if the ignition switched feed to the regulator is making a bad connection.
On my 501 engined Valentini replica I've got NLM's new pickup assembly which gives more accurate ignition timing at idle and therefore a lower stable idle speed. It's driving my own ignition circuit, which is just a copy of the original, but with tighter tollerance components and with some values tweaked to give a better advance curve shape. I've yet to run the bike in anger, but I was impressed with the way a Strada up at NLM could be started from cold and would then idle at little over 1000rpm in less than a minute.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
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Steve Brown
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
I agree the standard is fundamentally good, but it has plenty of weak spots, connections, fragile pick-ups etc. I suppose it's because it is a very basic early version of the type? I wouldn't mind trying the new pick-up you have-if only for the lower idle and hopefully more robust construction.
Have spent today cleaning the gummed up carbs on the 350 sport I bought back. (I was the original owner in '77) I spent a bit of time checking the electrics as well, as the bike has been standing for four years and I thought there may be the odd corroded connection. Happily it was all good and the bike fired up first kick.
MoT next weekend then, and I'm set for summer 
Back to topic though, the ignition on mine is obviously good, the source coil has a good resistance reading and so on, so I won't now be looking too much at alternative systems. On the other hand if it does ever fail, I'll be happy to look at upgrades, so thanks to mgill for bringing this one to light.
Steve
Have spent today cleaning the gummed up carbs on the 350 sport I bought back. (I was the original owner in '77) I spent a bit of time checking the electrics as well, as the bike has been standing for four years and I thought there may be the odd corroded connection. Happily it was all good and the bike fired up first kick.
MoT next weekend then, and I'm set for summer Back to topic though, the ignition on mine is obviously good, the source coil has a good resistance reading and so on, so I won't now be looking too much at alternative systems. On the other hand if it does ever fail, I'll be happy to look at upgrades, so thanks to mgill for bringing this one to light.
Steve
The alternator ignition coil resistance is a bit of a red herring. I've measured a NOS coil at 220 ohm and what really matters is how much it has dropped since it was wound. This is an indication of the state of the insulation.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
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Steve Brown
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
Yes, interesting you say that, mine only has 213 ohm, and produces a healthy spark at kick over. i.e. jumps a good 8mm from end of lead and as said, starts fine. I had a Kanguro once that had a lower figure and was problematic, Alex at NLM said that anything over 200 ohm is usually ok.EVguru wrote:The alternator ignition coil resistance is a bit of a red herring. I've measured a NOS coil at 220 ohm and what really matters is how much it has dropped since it was wound. This is an indication of the state of the insulation.
Of course, I still haven't road tested mine..........so under load could be different. At least when I previously had this sport, it was a good starter and the interim owner (or guardian
) commented on how good a starter it was compared to his other Morinis. I raced it in Forgotten Era for a couple of seasons and was able to get an advantage at the start by paddling the bike away (dead engine push starts) As long as the engine was warm I could take two steps astride the bike, drop the clutch and be away before the rest! But I was only in my late twenties then and have longish legs too!I have a question about spark plugs in case you know; Am clear on heat ranges etc, but would like to know if there is any concensus on resistor plugs? I always used to use plain old 'ES' NGK's, whilst waving the oily rag over this bike again, I found a pair of Iridium plugs surplus from my Matchless and have them fitted now. Not ridden yet, but would like to know the thoughts of those with more recent experience of resistor plugs in the standard Morini ignition? Have just been searching the forum, but can't see anything yet.
Any way, work in the morning so bye for now,
Steve
Hi everyone, i just wanted to add my two pennies worth. I've had a Kirby Rowbotham ( ie boyer) on my 350 for about ten years now and have never suffered any flat battery problems at all and she starts first kick everytime and runs sweet as a nut! (admittedly i don't do many town miles on her). The only problem ever encountered was when i stupidly managed to wire out the recifier/regulator unit and therefore the battery did not charge. Having said that it lasted all the way from Derby to Cadwell, a whole track day and then half the journey home before the battery gave up!
On the other note about iridium spark plugs i put a set in last year, and one of them gave up the ghost very quickly, after only about 1000 miles. Now it might have been a duff one, but as they cost a lot of money i would not use them again and have gone back to my old faithful EV's.
Cheers, Tony
On the other note about iridium spark plugs i put a set in last year, and one of them gave up the ghost very quickly, after only about 1000 miles. Now it might have been a duff one, but as they cost a lot of money i would not use them again and have gone back to my old faithful EV's.
Cheers, Tony
Hello everybody
I just droped in by casualidad (if I don´t find the word I try with spanish
)
Normaly I used the NGK B7ES in 3 1/2 and 501. Two years ago my dealer didn´t have them so I tried the much more expensive NGK BP7EVX (I don´t remember well, maybe about 10-12€). This onres are not Iridium but Platin. Some friends tried the Iridium sparks in teh Morinis and were disapointed.
I took them off last week to see how they are after about 17000 km. They look the same as in the beginning and the motor starts easily.
They are expensive but I´m absolut content with them, having a long life and starting better than the B7ES.
regards from the continent
norbert
I just droped in by casualidad (if I don´t find the word I try with spanish
)Normaly I used the NGK B7ES in 3 1/2 and 501. Two years ago my dealer didn´t have them so I tried the much more expensive NGK BP7EVX (I don´t remember well, maybe about 10-12€). This onres are not Iridium but Platin. Some friends tried the Iridium sparks in teh Morinis and were disapointed.
I took them off last week to see how they are after about 17000 km. They look the same as in the beginning and the motor starts easily.
They are expensive but I´m absolut content with them, having a long life and starting better than the B7ES.
regards from the continent
norbert
ignitions
always the most interesting topic about our bikes!
i speak from ignorance here, as do most people, but doesn't our standard ignition system depend for its accuracy on the voltage trigger from the pick-up (which is basically a coil), and that, inherently, this is so subject to many influences which may change (e.g. pick-up temperature, rate of voltage rise, voltage supplied, degrading of coil insulation etc) that a modern solid state system using Hall-effect sensors or optical sensors must be better?
...also, i don't think that KIrby-Rowbotham just does one type of ignition...the more recent digital ones use a tiny amount of power, as i understand....when i spoke to Kirby some while ago now, he was trying to make his digital system available with user definable/adjustable advance curves...not sure whether this ever happened
i had always thought that the main advantage with our system was that the bike would always run even with a flat battery???
please put me out of my ignorance...ade
i speak from ignorance here, as do most people, but doesn't our standard ignition system depend for its accuracy on the voltage trigger from the pick-up (which is basically a coil), and that, inherently, this is so subject to many influences which may change (e.g. pick-up temperature, rate of voltage rise, voltage supplied, degrading of coil insulation etc) that a modern solid state system using Hall-effect sensors or optical sensors must be better?
...also, i don't think that KIrby-Rowbotham just does one type of ignition...the more recent digital ones use a tiny amount of power, as i understand....when i spoke to Kirby some while ago now, he was trying to make his digital system available with user definable/adjustable advance curves...not sure whether this ever happened
i had always thought that the main advantage with our system was that the bike would always run even with a flat battery???
please put me out of my ignorance...ade
ade
Re: ignitions
adrian wrote:i had always thought that the main advantage with our system was that the bike would always run even with a flat battery???
please put me out of my ignorance...ade
Not just flat, it doesn't even need to be in the bike
Ran mine for a couple of months without one fitted. Of course the electro-tap and lights are no good....
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Steve Brown
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire
Hi Norbert, the same logic as I try to use. I thought I understood German though,norbert wrote:that´s exactly the reason apart of the price that I stay with the original kit as long as I canBecause electrolegastenic that I am my skin gets blue and my toung green deeling with cables
ciao norbert
Was heisst denn 'electrolegastenic'? Auch aus Spanien, oder?Did you used to do the MRC track days in the '80s? Was it you that sent me the 'Das Motorrad' mags?
I lost the addresses after a house umziehen 15yrs ago Tchuess, Steve.
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Steve Brown
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: 12 Nov 2007 23:44
- Location: Leicestershire