starting

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EVguru
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Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
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Re: starting

Post by EVguru »

Harry wrote:I think EVGuru is getting his electrics mixed up. Advance is controlled by the resistors in the transducers, the pick up simply generates a small voltage to trigger the thyristor in the pick up.
The ignition fires when the voltage produced by the pick-up (as modified by a divider network) reaches the threshold voltage of the thyristor. It should always fire at the same voltage, so the timing will be determined by when the pick-up produces that voltage. The voltage from the pick-up increases with rpm, so the trigger voltage is reached earlier and so the timing advanced. The pick-up NLM supply has the magnets in the coils, rather than in the rotor and uses a carefully shaped steel rotor to develop a quite different trigger waveform which gives a more progressive advance curve.

There some good information, including in depth technical articles in German, on the Dutch Morini site;
http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/tech.html

The 300 ohm coil figure is rather misleading. It simply would not be possible to wind enough turns to get to 300 ohms with the wire size used originally on some coils, there isn't enough room and 220 ohms would be more like it.

What I suspect happened is this; The early coils used thinner wire and were approx. 300 ohm, the figure reported in the manual, but the insulation broke down and the coils failed prematurely, so later coils were wound with thicker more robust wire but less turns and lower resistance. In theory the ignition would be less reliable because there was less 'spare' voltage to allow for weakening of the rotor magnets etc. but in reality having a more robust coil is better. Modern magnet wire has much better insulation and the thinner wire can be used with no problems.

The resistance is of no real importance, only the voltage produced!

Where the resistance reading is useful, is if you know what it was when the coil was wound, you can see if it has dropped over time indicating that the insulation is breaking down.

They may have gone back to thinner wire at a later date. I've not examined enough stator coils to be sure. If in doubt I rewind them using the smaller wire and just filling the bobbin rather than counting turns.

You can use NLM's new ignition box with your existing pickup. It's really just two of the original circuits built into one box and using external coils. I know, I supplied Alex with one of my versions to experiment with. They have a rig they can test ignition components on. Alex tested three or four red pick-ups for me when I was up there last. If you know anyone who can solder, you can make your own as shown on the Dutch site. BTH magnetos can supply some neat little coils the same as NLM use.
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
buell1203
Posts: 178
Joined: 12 Feb 2011 18:22
Location: uk

Re: starting

Post by buell1203 »

Thanks again. No idea as to the red box.it was fitted when bought but I only had a spark on one pot,now I have it on both. I can't bump it..or kick for long..recent heart probs.this makes it more frustrating for me as I get tired quickly.
paul mcgonigal

Re: starting

Post by paul mcgonigal »

Hi Buell,sounds very frustrating,if you have sparks and fuel getting in it should at least try to start I would recheck its firihg on number 1 pot on a compression stroke both valves should be closed. Also check crank pulley hasnt worn the woodruff key and has moved on the crank, and you have all timing marks aligned. Same with cam pulley as this would put the timing out its a longshot but its worth a look. Have you looked at the ignition pickups for any cracks you would have to remove them and look at the back it could cause weak and intermittent firing? Stick with it youll get it .
Mad Muller
buell1203
Posts: 178
Joined: 12 Feb 2011 18:22
Location: uk

Re: starting

Post by buell1203 »

Yes I have checked the trigger unit for cracks but see nothing. There is evidence that one red wire has been resoldered but it is working as both transducers fire the plugs. Speaking of which, I bought new ones today! Bp7es.

No difference. Not a hint of firing up. I checked out the red transducer and it has a number not khown on the Dutch morini website.. 323933. The number on the humped grey unit is difficult to read.

I refitted the trigger. Reset the valve timing..again...but all is correct.

I have re read the info on the Dutch site and see my reading of 210 ohms is within tolerance..although I have placed an ad for another coil with a higher rating just in case. I honestly see no reason why the beast should not fire.But it doesnt. Must be something simple;I like simple,but I have not found it yet!!!!!!
EVguru
Posts: 1530
Joined: 01 Aug 2006 11:13
Location: Luton
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Re: starting

Post by EVguru »

Which timing mark did you use on the crankcases to set the static timing?

And I'll say it again. If you include your location in your profile there might be someone local who can help!
Paul Compton
http://www.morini-mania.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/user/EVguru
buell1203
Posts: 178
Joined: 12 Feb 2011 18:22
Location: uk

Re: starting

Post by buell1203 »

have tried both marks to be sure. i am in darkest n wales so beyond most members reach
unreal
Posts: 228
Joined: 09 Apr 2010 15:39
Location: Penzance, Cornwall

Re: starting

Post by unreal »

This must be so frustrating, it would seem there's something basically wrong, you're getting a spark so stuff seems to be working.

I'm a little behind you on my rebuild but intend to send all my ignition parts to NML, they have a static rig on which they can test flywheel, stator, pickup and transdusers. I just want to ensure it should all work when fitted and if it doesn't it's my fault!
This may be an option for you as a start point?

By the way did you sort your frame issues or just replace it? Anyway I'm glad you didn't give up on it and am sure you'll crack this one.

Simon
buell1203
Posts: 178
Joined: 12 Feb 2011 18:22
Location: uk

Re: starting

Post by buell1203 »

i am really grateful for the advice and support so far. thanks to you all. simon. i hope you dont suffer my probs. i find a 74 uk frame and have built my parts into that. i know nlm test the system for 40 but with postage its 60 and i prefer to out that toward a new system. i like the mzb unit but at 600euro its too pricey.
HoveActually
Posts: 30
Joined: 02 Aug 2011 13:31
Location: Brighton, UK
Location: Hove, East Sussex

Re: starting

Post by HoveActually »

I apologise for taking you back to the subject of component compatibility, but I've re-read your description of your transducers / pickup.
A grey one with a hump IS NOT compatible with a red pickup! The voltage getting to the thyristor will be affected (reduced!) and affect spark generation! I can't comment on the red transducer but am sure that a phone call to Stuart at NLM will give you an answer.
Likewise on stator coil characteristics. EVGuru is right about resistance, windings & volts but a lower resistance coil = less windings = less volts UNLESS the rotor contains stronger magnets - I've no idea whether Morini used different strength magnets when they varied wire thickness / No of windings.
NLM (Stuart) told me a simple way to check magnet strength is (obviously remove rotor) and hold screwdriver blade over each magnet - the strength of attraction / loudness of clonk will indicate whether any have lost some magnetism. If so your volts will be down! NLM offer a re-magnetisation service if needed.
If you haven't already done so speak to Stuart. He is very helpful.
AndyB
buell1203
Posts: 178
Joined: 12 Feb 2011 18:22
Location: uk

Re: starting

Post by buell1203 »

Spoke to nlm today and the general consensus is that this is a common issue often resolved by towing the bike to gain enough speed to start it.alternatively they use a race type roller..neither of which I am able to do.
They think my coil is suspect as below 250 ohm it gets difficult to generate enough current. The suggestion is a rewind.see if it starts,sort the timing if possible then consider their coils to replace the transducers.
Seems good to me. I have had a member offer to rewind it for me and a local chap has also offered. Hopefully things will improve soon.
Thanks for your interest and the sound advice.
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